15 replies to this topic

[kels]

I'm new to altenergyshift, and I have to say this whole experience is inspiring. In one of my classes, we discussed ways for the United States to become more sustainable, and one solution was to change our culture. However, will people just be willing to change? If going green is harder, more expensive, or a big change to their everyday lives, will people be willing to sacrifice that for the environment? Most of my class said no, we need an incentive, or that it needs to be harder to not change. However, seeing all of these forums and seeing that there are some simply just to share ideas for how to keep a household green, some of my hope is restored. Do you think it will ever be possible for our culture to change? What is necessary for that to happen? What makes all of you want to change?

[eds]

kels, on 06 March 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

If going green is harder, more expensive, or a big change to their everyday lives

I'm confused,
. . . what do you personally do,
. . . that is so hard, expensive, or is so big a change?

[kels]

I just mean that in general, hybrid cars, wind and solar energy, etc, while greener, are also more expensive. Even little things like recycling require more effort. I know people whose townships don't collect recycling, and instead of driving to the recycling plant, they just throw out all of their plastic containers and cans with the other landfill waste. Even the organic produce in the grocery stores is a lot more expensive. When grocery shopping and trying to save money on groceries, not many people are willing to pay the extra price for an apple that's going to taste the same. Another thing is solar power. The local high school put in solar panels, and the taxpayers were not happy about it. It was an expensive process during a time of budget cuts, and while the solar panels will pay for themselves plus some in a few years, people did not apprecite it.

[eds]

kels, on 06 March 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

I just mean that in general, hybrid cars, wind and solar energy, etc, while greener, are also more expensive.

True, Hybrid cars are more expensive than gas cars, but I don't consider taking a gas car and shoving an electric system in it to be
. . . be very sustainable.  You've doubled the purchase price, repairs, maintenance, insurance, lone intrest and
. . . couldn't fix it yourself if you tried.  Who in their right mind would consider a hybrid sustainable.
. . . Wind and Solar energy are more expensive?  I don't believe the Germany would agree with you on that at all.
. . . Nor do I believe you have even compared the cost of renewable energy in Germany VS USA.

kels, on 06 March 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Even little things like recycling require more effort. I know people whose townships don't collect recycling, and instead of driving to the recycling plant, they just throw out all of their plastic containers and cans with the other landfill waste. Even the organic produce in the grocery stores is a lot more expensive. When grocery shopping and trying to save money on groceries, not many people are willing to pay the extra price for an apple that's going to taste the same. Another thing is solar power. The local high school put in solar panels, and the taxpayers were not happy about it. It was an expensive process during a time of budget cuts, and while the solar panels will pay for themselves plus some in a few years, people did not apprecite it.

92 California Schools installed solar, made $5.6 million in 2012 and are expected to make $140 million over the life of the systems.
. . . Now that's a real Asset, Invest the same amount of money in a bank, and see how much you get in interest.
There are parts of our cities and towns that are "Food Deserts," where the poor can not buy fresh foods and
. . . farmers who can't get a decent price for their crops.  Some people are banding together to put the two together.
. . . Now that's being sustainable.  Yes it takes a little effort to make this world a better place to live in and
. . . like your mother used to tell you, "Pick up after yourself."  Anybody can be a lazy litter bug, it just takes a little extra effort.

Attached Files

•  man.jpeg   11.19K   1 downloads

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Not recycling is just laziness; pure and simple.
But it can be just as easy to recycle as it is to toss it.
Set up boxes for paper/cardboard-cans/bottles-plastic.

Locally, wal-mart and local grocers have recycling bins for both paper and cans.
(All wal-mart's have those bins)
They had it for plastic too until some nimrod threw a plastic container in the bin full of used oil; so the collector's
removed those bins.
Now we have to drive to the plant. But for me, that's maybe once a month; so no biggie. I've changed a lot
of product choices, so I don't have as many plastic containers as I used to have. Buy smart, recycle less.

When you think about the trees you're saving from being felled, and all the oil not being used/burned from countries
that are not our friends (and the pollution); it's a no-brainer.

And going green at home saves a lot of money. It can save $300-500 a year depending.
If you (anyone) matched that dollar for dollar, it would only take a year or two to have enough to install a
panel or two.


See also-
http://www.altenergy...n-in-your-home/

http://www.altenergy...o-living-green/

http://www.altenergy...en-living-tips/

Tons of idea's in those 3 will get you started.

[FamilyTreeClimber]

I think it can happen, but it takes time.  I live in California where we are constantly seeing a evolution.  I remember in 1989 when the people first voted for mandatory recycling.  There was a backlash.  People hate to be forced to do anything.  Then, it was paper and plastic and we had to sort it.

Then, a couple years later, there was no more sorting.  Making it easier for people brought on less resistance.

Over the years, they have added more and more things we can recycle.  We've been able to recycle plastic bags for about 8 years.  About 5 years ago, we started recycling food scraps which go in with our green waste.  The garbage pickup company turns that into compost that they sell to businesses and individuals.  We added batteries last year.

As the state has a program to recycle e-waste, it is fairly easy to get rid of old computers, TVs, etc. because small companies will come and pick it up at your house for free.

I was looking at the website for our waste management company, that also runs the dumps (i.e. landfill you can drop stuff off at).  They can recycle about 80% of what people bring in to the dumps now.  Including things like mattresses which I would have never thought of.

California instituted Cap and Trade last year.  The verdict is still out on how that will go.

There are probably other things I could mention, but can't think of at this time.   It's been a slow progression though.  I would like to see California do more like Germany and other European countries by recycling more.

My opinion is the easier it is for people the more likely they will be involved.

(We recycle and compost so much now that we rarely fill our garbage can half way.)

[kels]

Thanks for all of the input! I really appreciate the personal experiences. I definitely agree that the easier it is for people, the more likely they will be involved. Do you think that there's an effective way to educate people about how much these things can matter, the benefits they'll see, or about how easy it really is? Or do you think people are educated and still choose not to participate? I know that I personally have learned a lot about what things can now be recycled, and I just now learned that mattresses can be recycled! I also never knew about the bins at Walmart. Maybe if people were educated about going green, they would participate.

[eds]

kels, on 07 March 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Do you think that there's an effective way to educate people about how much these things can matter

There is a saying:
. . . "Some people TALK THE TALK, and some people WALK THE WALK."
. . . Talking to people doesn't convince them as much as
. . . YOU PERSONALLY, actually doing sustainable things.

If you won't do anything, why should anyone believe you?
. . . Speaking of beliefs, do you still believe that Solar costs more than Nuclear?
. . . Did you look up anything on the internet that convinced you?

Source:  solar-and-nuclear-costs-the-historic-crossover

Attached Files

•  images.jpeg   9K   3 downloads

[Shortpoet-GTD]

kels, on 07 March 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Thanks for all of the input! I really appreciate the personal experiences. I definitely agree that the easier it is for people, the more likely they will be involved. Do you think that there's an effective way to educate people about how much these things can matter, the benefits they'll see, or about how easy it really is? Or do you think people are educated and still choose not to participate? I know that I personally have learned a lot about what things can now be recycled, and I just now learned that mattresses can be recycled! I also never knew about the bins at Walmart. Maybe if people were educated about going green, they would participate.

Sometimes it can depend on others.
Seniors for example. They may want to, but often, seniors live in smaller apartments, and don't have the
space needed for recycling bins or even cardboard boxes to hold the items in.
I work with seniors, and I have gotten many over the years to separate those items out for me; and I recycle
the items for them; including a lot of newspapers. Many seniors still prefer the paper.
News, puzzles, obit's (looking for friends or family that may have died they didn't know about.)
Most are amazed that their trash size is reduced to almost nothing because so much of it can be recycled.

[Phil]

I think we as Americans are far too hard on ourselves.  In some ways that is positive, it makes us try harder.  In other ways we tend to beat up on ourselves a little too much.

We are making progress year over year on most green fronts.  Recycling has become common over much of the nation, CFL's have been available for decades now, LED lights are now cost and performance competitive, our carbon foot print has been declining for years, wind and solar are making huge gains year over year, BEV's are becoming more widespread and soon FCV's will be available, Texas is building a huge hydrogen infrastructure, etc.

Can we do more?  Of course, but lets give ourselves an occasional pat on the back for all that we are doing.  As technology marches on it will be easier to be green.  Already profiled are plasma incinerators that reduce all garbage to energy.  This technology could mark the end of land fills.  Solar is already cheaper than nuclear, as pointed out earlier, and is currently the cheapest energy source available if you self install.  In fact it is the only energy source that will lower your electric bill.  Wind energy is very popular and enjoys broad support as evidenced by the recent renewal of incentives.  Our cars have continually improved gas mileage as well.

In general we are on the right track and will continue to progress.  The real green challenge is making wind and solar cheaper than coal so the third world will embrace green energy.  Right now China, India, etc. are headed in the wrong direction and it is they that will determine the planet's fate.  China is making some progress but they are still building coal plants like there is no tomorrow.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Phil, on 07 March 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Already profiled are plasma incinerators that reduce all garbage to energy.  This technology could mark the end of land fills.  

Yes, yes and yes. (So even the laziest among us can make energy) Good post-thanks.

[kels]

eds, on 07 March 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

. . . Speaking of beliefs, do you still believe that Solar costs more than Nuclear?
. . . Did you look up anything on the internet that convinced you?

I never believed that it costs more, I was just reading the chart you inserted by construction costs. If I was wrong or confused, sorry, I'm just a college student still trying to learn more about these things and maybe make a little bit of a difference.

thanks Phil! I like the positive spin on the issue. You're right- we are making strides, I guess maybe we all just need to be more patient.

[Phil]

Patience is indeed a virtue!    One thing that I think is real good news is the ascendance of viable LED lighting.  I've been searching for years for LED's that are truly dimmable and look like regular bulbs.  Only in the last year has this come to pass.  I've now replaced all my 65W incandescent floods with LED versions that are compatible with current dimmers and am in the process of replacing my CFL's with LED's as well.

As with solar panels, the only issue is up front costs, both save money over time but have high up front costs.  Luckily LED's aren't that expensive so most can take advantage of them.  As people switch to LED's they will save even more money than CFL's and rid the household of toxic mercury as well.

Something you might try locally is to buy one each of the following from Home Depot.

http://www.homedepot...32#.UTtoV6bTmM8

http://www.homedepot...74#.UTtpt6bTmM8

Have each of your classmates take them home for one night and demonstrate them to their families. Use class time to generate the economics of switching over using your current electric rates.  The "incentive" some of your classmates are in favor of is in the ROI.  If that $35 flood can pay for itself in a couple of years but lasts decades, THAT is the incentive.

As a community involvement program, you might also devise a way to demonstrate the technology to the neighborhood.  Either door to door, or in front of a willing grocery store, etc.

All too often green technology has been overhyped only to get a bad reputation as reality set in, Solar panels, fuel cell vehicles, CFL's, and now LED lighting all got bad names because they were touted before their time.  The only way to overcome that bad first impression is to demonstrate with current technology.

Note, there are still a lot of LED junk out there, of the two that I recommened, I've personally used the first and have seen the second, (I have them on order but they are so popular they are backordered).  Both are five star rated by users.

[egoff12]

Phil, on 09 March 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

All too often green technology has been overhyped only to get a bad reputation as reality set in, Solar panels, fuel cell vehicles, CFL's, and now LED lighting all got bad names because they were touted before their time.  The only way to overcome that bad first impression is to demonstrate with current technology.

I completely agree. It's unfortunate how this tends to happen with some of the most promising technology. Especially when the information about new technology is so misunderstood (neither of my parents would be able to explain the difference between cfl and led bulbs, let alone understand how both have changed over time), the primacy effect of seeing a new technology perform poorly or even unexceptionally  can be crushing for the technology's adoption, at least for households. On one hand, the seller of such technology needs to make sure the latest and greatest is advertised, but if the company can't afford large scale advertising, that's often hard to do.

[Phil]

The problem comes from forcing technology to market before it's ready.  I remember being so enthused about solar panels in the 80's, then I priced them.  YIKES! $15/watt if I recall, $40/watt in todays dollars.  Even at today's sale price of 40 cents/watt they are a tough sell.  At $40/watt equivalent no wonder so many thought they were a complete joke, unfortunately first impressions are hard to overcome.

Having dealt with marketing divisions in companies I've worked for you practically have to haul them to the parking lot and flog them for a while to keep them grounded in reality.  One company I worked for nearly went bankrupt due to overpromising and under delivering.  They had to replace their entire marketing and sales management and hired me to fix the engineering end and with all that effort it still took over a year to turn their reputation around.  Only when we demonstrated we could deliver what we promised repeatedly did customer trust return.

From experience, unfortunately once you've burned a customer no amount of advertising is enough because you've lost trust.  The only thing that matters is performance.  According to Jeff of E3Wise, FCV's had the same problem, overhyped/under performed.  As a result they've now learned their lesson and will be very low key until they can actually deliver a production vehicle.

I was very enthused about FCV's promise, then totally turned of by their reality.  Only when I got the current scoop from a trusted source like Jeff did I become enthused again.  It's all about customer trust.

[LouisseSantos]

In general we are on the right track and will continue to progress.  The real green challenge is making wind and solar cheaper than coal so the third world will embrace green energy.