58 replies to this topic

[Shortpoet-GTD]

A train carrying crude oil derailed near Quebec, Canada in the town of Lac-Megantic;
destroying several homes.

The photo's of this train derailment say it all.
Several people are still missing.
Source

This link has footage of the fire.
http://www.usatoday....quebec/2494651/


Ain't fossil fuels grand?

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 06 July 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

A train carrying crude oil derailed near Quebec, Canada in the town of Lac-Megantic;
destroying several homes.

The photo's of this train derailment say it all.
Several people are still missing.
Source

This link has footage of the fire.
http://www.usatoday....quebec/2494651/


Ain't fossil fuels grand?

Was the derailment related in any way to what the train was carrying?
Consequences are, of course, another matter.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Besoeker, on 07 July 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

Was the derailment related in any way to what the train was carrying?

This particular rail company has had several derailments (oil/chemicals) in recent history but sabotage wasn't
mentioned in this
article.

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 07 July 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

This particular rail company has had several derailments (oil/chemicals) in recent history but sabotage wasn't
mentioned in this
article.

I wasn't suggesting sabotage.
I hadn't even thought about it.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Reports now are saying that it was a run-a-way train.
The engineer's shift was over, the train was parked uphill, so he left. They're blaming the brakes; but they
could have been released on purpose.
And even if it wasn't on purpose, who would be stupid enough to park a train on a hill fully loaded with
crude oil? The weight pressure on the brakes must have been off the charts.  
(I wonder if they'll investigate it?)

72 of the 73 tanker cars were filled with oil.
Article

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 07 July 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Reports now are saying that it was a run-a-way train.
The engineer's shift was over, the train was parked uphill, so he left. They're blaming the brakes; but they could have been released on purpose.

Or it might have been hit by an asteroid. Speculation allows an infinite number of possibilities regardless of probability.

Shortpoet-GTD, on 07 July 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

And even if it wasn't on purpose, who would be stupid enough to park a train on a hill fully loaded with crude oil?

Would it have mattered what it was loaded with?

Shortpoet-GTD, on 07 July 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

The weight pressure on the brakes must have been off the charts.  

I wonder though......
Generally, rail tracks are built with relatively low gradients and there is little rolling resistance. That's how locomotives manage to haul such huge loads. The kinetic friction* of the brakes ought to be able to stop the train and, in this case, obviously did. Static friction ought to have kept it stopped.

*I mentioned static and kinetic friction. As a rule, static friction is greater than kinetic friction. If you want to push a heavy case across the floor it takes more force to get it moving than to keep it moving. The relevance to the train is that if the kinetic friction of the brakes could, and did, stop it the static friction ought to have been able to keep it stopped.

Clearly, in this case, it didn't. One might expound theories of thermal contraction. But you'd think that railway engineers in such a mature industry would have those bases covered.
No doubt the investigation will come up with some conclusions.

If I were to speculate, I'd put it down to human error. With tragic consequences.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Besoeker, on 07 July 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

Or it might have been hit by an asteroid. Speculation allows an infinite number of possibilities regardless of probability.

Would it have mattered what it was loaded with?

That first line is just silly. At this point, it's not speculation that human and mechanical error was the cause.

And two, no it doesn't necessarily matter what it was loaded with but hazardous materials are often transported
by train, and when accidents happen, people unfortunately die;
but the bigger picture is the environmental damage it causes.

Tainted water and soil can harm more people in the long run; not to mention flora and fauna.

But pipelines can rupture too so it's a dilemma on how to transport the stuff.

That's why we need to reduce our use of fossil fuels worldwide. Everyday, it seems, there's a leak or
a spill somewhere.

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 08 July 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

That first line is just silly.

It was a serious point in response to your post.
“but they could have been released on purpose.” sounds like speculation.
Once you engage in speculation about possible causes, you can't exclude any possible cause, however remote. The mention of the meteorite was to illustrate just that.

Shortpoet-GTD, on 08 July 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

At this point, it's not speculation that human and mechanical error was the cause.

This suggests otherwise

Quote

As Canadian authorities continued Sunday to investigate what caused a train to derail

I don't know if that investigation has yet published any conclusions. I'd think it unlikely that they would have so soon.

Shortpoet-GTD, on 08 July 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

And two, no it doesn't necessarily matter what it was loaded with but hazardous materials are often transported
by train, and when accidents happen, people unfortunately die;
but the bigger picture is the environmental damage it causes.

Which is why I mentioned consequences. Some people might consider death a fairly serious consequence.

[Phil]

Oil is going to continue to come here one way or another.  Midwest refineries are already being converted to handle the heavier tar sand crude.  I would posit that a new pipeline would be safer than old rails but that's just me! :<)

There is only one way to stop the transfer of oil, buy a BEV or FCV.  As long as we pull up to the pump, people will drill it and ship it.  Even after that, some 39% of oil is used in industry for plastics, makeup, clothing, etc.  The only way to totally shut oil down would be to come up with viable biofuel alternates for industrial uses.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Thank you for that response Phil.

[Besoeker]

Phil, on 08 July 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Oil is going to continue to come here one way or another.  Midwest refineries are already being converted to handle the heavier tar sand crude.  I would posit that a new pipeline would be safer than old rails but that's just me! :<)

I think you are probably correct. I remember pipelines being installed in Scotland in the early days of North Sea oil.
No doubt cost is a major factor. If the track and rolling stock already exists it might make economic sense to deploy that rather than excavating and laying pipes.

Phil, on 08 July 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

There is only one way to stop the transfer of oil, buy a BEV or FCV.

Seems logical. There are a number of BEVs already on the market. Actually, have been for a century or more. They have served certain niche markets. Milk floats in UK have been around for about eighty years. The technology was a good fit for the task. Delivering milk to the doorstep early in the morning meant a quiet vehicle that was efficient with frequent stops and starts, had a defined route (thus range), ample time to recharge made the EV right for the job.

It also sums up a couple of EV limitations that still exist. Range and recharge time.

Phil, on 08 July 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

As long as we pull up to the pump, people will drill it and ship it.  Even after that, some 39% of oil is used in industry for plastics, makeup, clothing, etc.  The only way to totally shut oil down would be to come up with viable biofuel alternates for industrial uses.

Agreed.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Update-
The death toll rose to 33, as 5 more bodies were found Saturday.
Source

[still learning]

Overnight parked crude oil train brakes either not set right or somehow failed, ran away downhill seven miles, derailed, killed forty seven.    See  http://news.yahoo.co...-153854486.html

[Besoeker]

still learning, on 19 July 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

Overnight parked crude oil train brakes either not set right or somehow failed, ran away downhill seven miles, derailed, killed forty seven. See  http://news.yahoo.co...-153854486.html

I wonder what ignited the oil in the first place?

[still learning]

Besoeker, on 20 July 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

I wonder what ignited the oil in the first place?

  We may never know.  Crude oil normally contains some proportion of low molecular weight components like pentane, very volatile components.  Would evaporates out of the bulk of the crude quickly, then spread out.  Can form an explosive mixture with air.  Most any open flame might set things off.  Maybe even a spark from the wreck itself.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Here we go again; another oil train derailment. This time it was North Dakota.
http://www.huffingto...tm_hp_ref=green

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 31 December 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

Here we go again; another oil train derailment. This time it was North Dakota.
http://www.huffingto...tm_hp_ref=green

Maybe the grain train was to blame?

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Besoeker, on 31 December 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

Maybe the grain train was to blame?

That's the first thing I thought of.
"I'm gmo corn and I will screw up every cow, chicken and pig that eats me=screw up people, and there's
no stopping me."

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 31 December 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

That's the first thing I thought of.
"I'm gmo corn and I will screw up every cow, chicken and pig that eats me=screw up people, and there's
no stopping me."

The grain train went down the track
The full containers at its back

It should have stayed within the gage
We know it didn’t at this stage

Did it swing or did it sway
To hit the oiler on the t’other way?

The carnage cannot be denied
There may be blame on either side

The freight mightn’t be your taste.
But should we judge in much haste?

Mechanical failure might be to blame
For other freight you’d have the same

Consequences pretty dire
Conflagration – a serious fire.

Forensics have some way to go
Exact  cause we may not know

[Shortpoet-GTD]

FABULOUS.