19 replies to this topic

[tri-n-b-helpful]

Does your country use Tidal Power to generate electricity?

It looks like they have started building the world's largest in Western Australia:

http://www.theaustra...e-1225694607111

Way back in a high school chemistry lesson, on project management, if I remember correctly, there is a certain spot in Western Australia's far north that does not require any "environmental rearrangement" to become the world's largest tidal power plant. It had ideal placement to accommodate all considerations of such a project. One tiny problem down here... the Native Title Act! Three tribes of indigenous Australians all claim ownership of the area, so no construction work will ever be allowed there. They are refusing to budge on the issue.

Any thoughts?

[still learning]

tri-n-b-helpful, on 07 April 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Any thoughts?

Note that the linked article includes:
"Tidal power is not strictly base-load, but it is highly predictable, and therefore can be scheduled -- in lots of 25 minutes, 30 years in advance -- which makes it attractive to utilities. Cornelius will not reveal costings, but says tidal is more cost-competitive than offshore wind, but needs the support of a feed-in tariff, or some similar mechanism, to attract interest for the grid."

Cost competitive with offshore wind?
Definitely not much of a recommendation.  Offshore wind is, so far, about as expensive per levelized kwh as any source of renewable electricity gets.  Sounds like it's more expensive than photovoltaic.   (See http://en.wikipedia....icity_by_source but factor in the age of the estimates)
Costs will come down for sure, but how much?

[JBMedia]

This is a very interesting article. My main concern with these type of things is the cost unfortunately. Cost generally is what hinders renewable energy processes. It definitely sounds like it could be a great alternative, but as still has noted, how much will the costs go down? Unfortunately that's an answer that will determine the overall usage of this type of renewable energy source.

[MyDigitalpoint]

Great article indeed, but I don't think this energy source can be implemented in the short term.

You see that even the wind farms are just beginning to be taken seriously by governments despite this is not the latest discovery in energy matters.

[meowcow]

I am so jealous of Australia right now! I am really glad that we are advancing enough in terms of technology to have these things available to us now. I also think it's great that we are constantly testing out new ideas and I am sure that one day all of these will be a permanent fixture on how we live our lives.

[aspen]

Interesting Just Curious. Where about on the NW coast did they have in mind? No mention was made in the article other than reference to mining. So maybe in the Pilbara? I've spend quite some time north of Derby on the coast and believe me the tidal difference there could easily produce power.
The initial high capital cost and the  other issue such as the marine environment, location and indigenous peoples claim to the land can slow this technology from going ahead in the very near future. Once those  great hurdles have been addressed and  the infrastructure is in place, little more is required other than maintenance.
My preference to would be for Tidal power. I,ve never been keen on wind-power for aesthetic reasons and the killing of birdlife.

[tri-n-b-helpful]

The mining in Western Australia will easily take care of the money side of things. Their mining is going gangbusters leaving the rest of Oz with inflated prices, etc from the imbalanced two-speed economy. The huge tidal difference in certain parts will mean more output for less set-up costs. I think the maintenence costs for the proposed build are expected to be much less than the equivelent in offshore wind installations. So the problem of native title remains, but there are other obstacles regarding the long term viability. It reached the news headlines the other day that the West Antarctic The mining in Western Australia will easily take care of the money side of things. Their mining is going gangbusters leaving the rest of Oz with inflated prices, etc from the imbalanced two-speed economy. The huge tidal difference in certain parts will mean more output for less set-up costs. I think the maintenance costs for the proposed build are expected to be much less than the equivalent in offshore wind installations. So the problem of native title remains, but there are other obstacles regarding the long-term viability. It reached the news headlines the other day that the West Antarctic Ice Shelf is about to collapse, sending the sea level up another four meters or so. I wonder how dependant this sort of structure is on sea levels remaining unchanged? It seems a bit of a gamble in the long run. Already here, we have about 320 surf lifesaving buildings collapsing from coastal errosion.

[E3 wise]

Ok let me be upfront, I like the IDEA of tidal power, I have been keeping up with lots of different companies trying to get tidal and wave energy generation going.  I also keep up with a couple of Universities here in the United States.

Now here are first question as a Dumb American who is not familiar with Australian maritime law,  These are off shore usually a few miles from shore so could they not go forward with development using the offshore limits to get around the native title.  3-12 miles is considered territorial seas and 12-24 miles as Contiguous Zone if I remember my Australian maritime boundaries correctly, I could be wrong.

On the subject of costs as opposed to offshore wind.  Guys off shore wind costs a fortune and a half, still learning is correct in the fact that it is the most expensive type of wind energy generation projects, for lots of reasons.  So it would theoretically be cheaper per Kw hour, except it’s never been done before, so the estimates are just that, estimates of costs.

Really my wish is that something could be done to bring down the excessive cost of energy in Australia.  I have actually made the comment at several meetings that “If Americans had to pay what people in Australia pay for electricity, natural gas, and petrol there would be a full scale civil revolt.  After all the broken promises from the utilities and governments you guys just keep getting hit harder and harder and its really wrong. Let me know what you think.

[tri-n-b-helpful]

I can remember some years ago I was watching a travel show which showed a beautiful inlet in some natural rock formation on the north coast of Western Australia. The tidal difference was caught on camera and it was massive! It was tipped back then to be the best spot to rig up a tidal plant, except for two things; one being Native Title, the other was that no-one lived anywhere near there at the time. But mining has changed everything now.

Sorry, my last post looks quite unreadable!

From the article, I wish to highlight one important point that I missed previously:
"Atlantis already has a smaller turbine installed at Phillip Island near Melbourne which has been feeding electricity into the grid for the past nine months. Chief Executive Tim Cornelius says the Koolan Island facility will be the first time tidal power has been used to directly power an industrial facility."

My understanding of "directly power an industrial facility", consistent with frequency and reliability of the tide, is that there would be no need whatsoever for using batteries as storage! This would beat photovoltaic hands down, especially as photovoltaic solar cells degrade power output substantially under hot conditions (e.g., a 1.5kW system is measured as having a peak output in the middle of the day at just 1075W, due to severe degradation of a solar panel's 25 degree Celsius rating). Such an ideal of "power on tap" would reduce maintenance costs considerably. Of course, solar with thermal storage would be a viable option, but I do think it's important to diversify.

More than the funding, which down here we've always been short on, and the regulation of finance and the banking sector and investment incentive, is the culture which prevents anyone from getting ahead down here. The USA has a great system to fund innovation. Here, if someone or a company has a great idea, the first thing everyone else does is to try every way possible to cut them down. I think it has an expression... the "tall poppy syndrome". I don't have all the answers to this, but I think we will keep pushing for clean and green (with wise expenditure), regardless!

[still learning]

Is it possible that there is some apples-oranges mixup in this thread?

For tidal electricity generation there are at least two pretty different varieties.  http://en.wikipedia....iki/Tidal_power

A tidal "barrage" is essentially a dam built across the mouth of an estuary with the electricity generation done much like an ordinary hydroelectric setup. Two sizable ones operating today.  Definitely environmental consequences.  Interferes with water transportation too.

The other kind, the tidal "stream generator" operates more like an underwater windmill.  No dam. Less interference to the environment or to water transportation.

[artistry]

I think that I read somewhere that tidal power can be very expensive. I am also not sure that this type of energy source will be put on any front burner, in the United States, for immediate implementation, due to the cost consideration.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

I just ran across this article about tidal power in Maine.

PORTLAND, Maine
"Maine regulators on Tuesday put three utilities on the path to distribute electricity harnessed from tides
at the nation's eastern tip, a key milestone in a bid to turn the natural rise and fall of ocean levels into power.

The Maine Public Utilities Commission set terms for a contract that would be in place for 20 years.
The regulators also directed the three utilities to negotiate with Ocean Renewable Power Co. to put electricity onto the
grid this summer, the first long-term power purchase agreements for tidal energy in the United States.

"It's a landmark in the commercialization of tidal energy in the U.S.," Chris Sauer, president and CEO of the Portland-based company, told The Associated Press.

Officials in Canada are watching the Maine project with interest. Ocean Renewable and Nova Scotia-based Fundy
Tidal Inc. hope to install the same units in waters off Nova Scotia, where Bay of Fundy
offers even greater tidal power potential, officials have said."
Article here.

[4leafclover]

Goldcoast in Queensland, Australia will definitely on the edge for this! This is definitely environmental friendly, cost-efficient and natural way of producing electricity. I wish areas with possible tidal powers will act on this kind of source.

[kat74]

No, my country still depends on hydro power mostly. We have a geothermal power station which generates  some of the power we use.. I think tidal power is workable especially with such a great coastline like ours. The problem might be capital to invest in it since we are still the so called third world country.

[JMS]

Due to the high investment in setting up the project, a typical tidal power project is expected to break even between 8 and 12 years after commissioning. However I believe despite the long gestation period to make it commercially viable, tidal power has unparalleled environmental advantages .

[Mustaxina]

tri-n-b-helpful, on 07 April 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Does your country use Tidal Power to generate electricity?

Part of my country is known as "The Saudi Arabia of marine power", and that includes both tidal power and wave power! The huge advantage of tidal power, which works in a manner similar to wind power but underwater, is that tides are 100% predictable, so you don't have the issues with load balancing that plague solar and wind power. On the other hand, the big problem with this technology, especially in Scotland, is that the environment in which tidal power turbines is an extremely harsh one. Also, you need about 1,000 average tidal power machines to produce an output equivalent to that of a gas station.

[GlewEngineering]

Here's an interesting blog on tidal energy. While the concept may be far from fruition, I think there is great potential.

http://tinyurl.com/mefuysz

[Besoeker]

GlewEngineering, on 05 June 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Here's an interesting blog on tidal energy. While the concept may be far from fruition, I think there is great potential.

http://tinyurl.com/mefuysz

Can you explain the basics behind :

Quote

Deep Green can be steered similar to the high altitude kites used to capture wind energy, and can capture energy at 10 times the speed of actual stream velocity.

[GlewEngineering]

Deep Green is a revolutionary concept designed by Minesto. Instead of a kite that floats through the air, Deep Green is a kite like object that is attached to the ocean floor and moves through the water along with the current. A kite like system for water would be a great tool for acquiring energy because water is 800 times denser then air and contains 800 time the energy of air while in motion.

[Besoeker]

GlewEngineering, on 07 June 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Deep Green is a revolutionary concept designed by Minesto. Instead of a kite that floats through the air, Deep Green is a kite like object that is attached to the ocean floor and moves through the water along with the current. A kite like system for water would be a great tool for acquiring energy because water is 800 times denser then air and contains 800 time the energy of air while in motion.

Got any figures, preliminary studies for the concept?