The pros and con's of passing these measures on solar markets.
Here.
Anti dumping on wind turbines also-
Here.
Your thoughts on this?
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1
DOC anti dumping-Chinese solar panels. Good/Bad?
Started by Shortpoet-GTD, Jun 04 2012 04:35 AM
15 replies to this topic
#2
Posted 06 June 2012 - 01:30 PM
I think bad, really bad. The amount of jobs saved is a pittance, we should rejoice that China wants to fund 30% of our solar conversion bill! Add the 30% govrnment incentive and it's like 60% off! 
I believe in the Apple model, do the innovation over here, the mass production over there. Apple would have to lay off thousands of high paying jobs if they were forced to make Ipods, Iphones, Ipads, etc, in this country.
Again, there are very few jobs involved in solar panel production, it is almost completely automated.
I believe in the Apple model, do the innovation over here, the mass production over there. Apple would have to lay off thousands of high paying jobs if they were forced to make Ipods, Iphones, Ipads, etc, in this country.
Again, there are very few jobs involved in solar panel production, it is almost completely automated.
#3
Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:39 PM
Thanks for the reply
but
how do we get equal
when it comes to China? Even 60-40 would be better than what we have now.
It's "their way or the highway" and how long can be sustain that trade imbalance?
Damn near everything in stores now is "made in China".
but
how do we get equal
when it comes to China? Even 60-40 would be better than what we have now.
It's "their way or the highway" and how long can be sustain that trade imbalance?
Damn near everything in stores now is "made in China".
#4
Posted 08 June 2012 - 05:41 PM
There is only one way, stop borrowing from them. We have absolutely no leverage, rest assured they will find some way of "paying us back" for that tariff.
As always happens with capitalism, China's workers are demanding higher wages, so the low end jobs are now going to other countries like Viet Nam. etc. The guy that sold me my panels is going outside of China to Taiwan, S Korea, etc. Grade A prices now down to 99 cents/watt, grade B cosmetic defect are now 69 cents/watt and he's promising even lower prices.
Whether we like it or not, solar panels are now a world wide commodity. That ship has sailed and Obama is wasting his time and our money. Our forte is more complex manufacturing, solar panel production is highly automated. As said before, do the innovaton here, production there. You couldn't afford an Iphone if it was made here, everybody loses.
Oops, is my libertarian capitalist brain showing?
As always happens with capitalism, China's workers are demanding higher wages, so the low end jobs are now going to other countries like Viet Nam. etc. The guy that sold me my panels is going outside of China to Taiwan, S Korea, etc. Grade A prices now down to 99 cents/watt, grade B cosmetic defect are now 69 cents/watt and he's promising even lower prices.
Whether we like it or not, solar panels are now a world wide commodity. That ship has sailed and Obama is wasting his time and our money. Our forte is more complex manufacturing, solar panel production is highly automated. As said before, do the innovaton here, production there. You couldn't afford an Iphone if it was made here, everybody loses.
Oops, is my libertarian capitalist brain showing?
#9
Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:48 AM
Another reason I'm against China flooding the markets with their solar panels.
http://business-news...solar-factory/1
http://business-news...solar-factory/1
#10
Posted 07 July 2012 - 08:17 AM
I think the phrase I'm looking for is "hoist by your own petard". 
Did youi actually read the article? The largest solar plant in the country and it only employs 355 people!!! 
You will lose 10x that, if not 100x that on the retail end because installs willl drop dramatically.
As I said, solar panel manufacture is highly automated, there just aren't the jobs there. As I also said, vendors have already bypassed the problem by going to other countries. The vendor I used has already found a loophole as well. You can buy raw solar cells from anywhere and still have them assembled in China and not get tariffed!
To sum up, the tariff was badly written. It went after China when panels are a world wide commodity. It has a loophole you can drive a truck through. It would lose 10x-100x more jobs than it saves even if it did work.
At least that's my take!
Did youi actually read the article? The largest solar plant in the country and it only employs 355 people!!! You will lose 10x that, if not 100x that on the retail end because installs willl drop dramatically.As I said, solar panel manufacture is highly automated, there just aren't the jobs there. As I also said, vendors have already bypassed the problem by going to other countries. The vendor I used has already found a loophole as well. You can buy raw solar cells from anywhere and still have them assembled in China and not get tariffed!
To sum up, the tariff was badly written. It went after China when panels are a world wide commodity. It has a loophole you can drive a truck through. It would lose 10x-100x more jobs than it saves even if it did work.
At least that's my take!
#11
Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:51 AM
I'm sure you're right; it's just so *&^% ing frustrating.
We need the industry here and the jobs.
If China were Japan, where the people have rights, it probably wouldn't rub me the wrong way as much.
Sure, it would still be foreign bought commodities but if they're making a good product, so be it.
China being what it is; "a living in the dark ages, total control, forget about your rights, regime" is not
a country I want to support whatsoever.
We need the industry here and the jobs.
If China were Japan, where the people have rights, it probably wouldn't rub me the wrong way as much.
Sure, it would still be foreign bought commodities but if they're making a good product, so be it.
China being what it is; "a living in the dark ages, total control, forget about your rights, regime" is not
a country I want to support whatsoever.
#12
Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:20 AM
I think it would sting less if you kept your "eyes on the prize". The prize is to flood the US with solar panels on rooftops and create more NET green jobs here. We need a snowball effect and that can only be accomplished with the lowest prices possible. We've traded with China for half a century now so this is nothing new by any stretch.
If it's any consolation, the factories are highly automated with expertise required to keep them running, it's highly unlikely there are sweat shop conditions in a typical solar panel factory. There are now two Chinas, the old peasant class and the new middle class. Their regime is far less fascist with the middle class since they don't pose the threat the agitated peasant class does. The more of our money they have the less fascist they need to be.
If it's any consolation, the factories are highly automated with expertise required to keep them running, it's highly unlikely there are sweat shop conditions in a typical solar panel factory. There are now two Chinas, the old peasant class and the new middle class. Their regime is far less fascist with the middle class since they don't pose the threat the agitated peasant class does. The more of our money they have the less fascist they need to be.
#13
Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:51 AM
Phil, on 08 July 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:
I think it would sting less if you kept your "eyes on the prize". The prize is to flood the US with solar panels on rooftops and create more NET green jobs here. We need a snowball effect and that can only be accomplished with the lowest prices possible. We've traded with China for half a century now so this is nothing new by any stretch.
If it's any consolation, the factories are highly automated with expertise required to keep them running, it's highly unlikely there are sweat shop conditions in a typical solar panel factory. There are now two Chinas, the old peasant class and the new middle class. Their regime is far less fascist with the middle class since they don't pose the threat the agitated peasant class does. The more of our money they have the less fascist they need to be.
If it's any consolation, the factories are highly automated with expertise required to keep them running, it's highly unlikely there are sweat shop conditions in a typical solar panel factory. There are now two Chinas, the old peasant class and the new middle class. Their regime is far less fascist with the middle class since they don't pose the threat the agitated peasant class does. The more of our money they have the less fascist they need to be.
#14
Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:12 AM
Update-
"In an unanimous 6-0 decision, the U.S. International Trade Commission has determined that solar panel manufacturers in the United States have been injured by underpriced imports from China.
This clears the way for tariffs and anti-dumping penalties by the U.S. Commerce Department, which has
already projected it will levy countervailing duties of 24% to 36% against imported Chinese photovoltaic cell (PVC) panels."
Source
"In an unanimous 6-0 decision, the U.S. International Trade Commission has determined that solar panel manufacturers in the United States have been injured by underpriced imports from China.
This clears the way for tariffs and anti-dumping penalties by the U.S. Commerce Department, which has
already projected it will levy countervailing duties of 24% to 36% against imported Chinese photovoltaic cell (PVC) panels."
Source
#15
Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:09 PM
It also bodes well for quality, look consumers look at price ,but if the quality is sub standard then millions will say solar does not work. What this does is level the playing field and allow quality to be the most important criteria, not price, costs will continue to drop but without sacrificing quality.
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