"Oral cultures often evidence wars of words, such as riddle or song contests, name-calling, and bragging... Writing, on the other hand, separates us from each other, and therefore subdues the constant verbal jousting of oral cultures. Contemporary cultures still have their contests, their agons, but they have moved to other arenas, perhaps in our culture business and sports." (Robert Fowler)
"Internet flaming may be seen as one aspect of a partial return to oral culture in digital writing, which tends to be dynamic and playful, and which encourages interlocutors to pay attention to how messages are packaged. Flaming may therefore have important affinities with a large variety of stylized oral forms of verbal dueling in which performance is central, such as 'flyting' in medieval England, or 'playing the dozens' among contemporary Black Americans." (Brenda Danet)
I was reading this blog page - http://lorenrosson.b...et-flaming.html -
Excerpt -
"Can flaming be a good thing? Conventional wisdom says no, but that may owe to a print-culture bias. In oral cultures insults aren't necessarily indicators of immaturity or a mean spirit. In this post we will look at the way invective has been used in three contexts -- the Middle-East, the antique north, and Black America -- and then see how internet flaming can serve a positive role when drawing on the best from these traditions."
She then goes on to give examples.
I agree that we've become far too precious with our ideas and beliefs. Nowadays the art of debate and lively to-and-fro seems to have denigrated into an automatic recital of the 'litany' and a complete shutdown.
With constant debate , no one argument ever prevails - which is how it should be - without a fluid change in knowledge our beliefs become dogmatic. Disagreement is good it leads to open honest debate. Consensus stifles individuality and subjectiveness.
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Flaming an Ancient Tradition?
Started by
Guest_climagician_*
, Dec 04 2011 06:20 PM
debate discussion flaming
16 replies to this topic
#3
Posted 04 December 2011 - 08:24 PM
Yes, we may have some disagreement but it should not strip anyone off of the respect others should give in order to earn it. A debate is a good way of being into the topic and exploring what we already know and what we can still uncover but there must exist also learning, understanding and acceptance. It should not be “I know better” but “What will work best for everybody”.
#4
Posted 04 December 2011 - 11:35 PM
Yes, but the difference between an oral culture and internet culture is that in one, you are speaking to someone, while with the other you're speaking at someone. Oral cultures tend to keep interactions on a human level even when they're heated or vindictive. The worst flamers on the internet hide behind anonymity, which I find irritating. Stand up for what you believe in and stand behind your words.
#5
Posted 05 December 2011 - 02:48 AM
mariaandrea, on 04 December 2011 - 11:35 PM, said:
Yes, but the difference between an oral culture and internet culture is that in one, you are speaking to someone, while with the other you're speaking at someone. Oral cultures tend to keep interactions on a human level even when they're heated or vindictive. The worst flamers on the internet hide behind anonymity, which I find irritating. Stand up for what you believe in and stand behind your words.
That is cowardly and smacks of lack of courage of conviction. As opposed to oral culture in which it is plain open. The verbal one up manships were considered challenges of honor. Barely do people realize that the battle of wits is an art and has to be practiced honorably. Sustained debate between individuals with real identities is such a rarity on the internet.
#6
Posted 05 December 2011 - 05:53 AM
Great responses. I always think it's kind of funny how some people try to excuse bad behavior by seeking precedent in "tradition". People used to use blood letting to cure illness, stoned people to death for crimes both real and imagined, some cultures traditionally sacrificed young women's lives to appease their gods... there are many, many traditions that are at best overrated and have rightfully fallen out of favor.
I think calling people names as some attempt to prove bravado is one of them, likewise is needling people just to get a reaction... that's the kind of behavior better addressed with a therapist. Why do such people need the attention even if it's negative? Why do they feel the need to verbally abuse and malign others in an attempt to(briefly) feel better about themselves?
Whether it's a matter of individual psychology or sociology, flamming/trolling is certainly destructive rather than constructive. Since this community has opportunity to choose it's atmosphere I imagine most would prefer it to be constructive, hence the rules. In greater society it would seem most people would also choose the more respectful environment, at least for their own experience... perhaps in execution of their words and actions towards others they fail to reflect this.
As others have mentioned, in a medium such as this where people are not easily made to accept the consequences of their words in any real sense, "flaming" is indeed juvenile and cowardly.
I recently went to a seminar about teaching children safety and ettiquette for using internet and cellphones. One of the key points was teaching kids that the internet is now an extension of our reality and that they should behave as such. More and more everyday the line is blurred between our personal lives and the technologies that we use. Just because you choose to bully someone through a text message or a forum does not negate that it IS bullying. Use racially charged insults and it can be elevated to a hate crime. And a convenient side effect of all this technology is the creation of a record of these events that can be used as evidence against the perpetrator.
I think calling people names as some attempt to prove bravado is one of them, likewise is needling people just to get a reaction... that's the kind of behavior better addressed with a therapist. Why do such people need the attention even if it's negative? Why do they feel the need to verbally abuse and malign others in an attempt to(briefly) feel better about themselves?
Whether it's a matter of individual psychology or sociology, flamming/trolling is certainly destructive rather than constructive. Since this community has opportunity to choose it's atmosphere I imagine most would prefer it to be constructive, hence the rules. In greater society it would seem most people would also choose the more respectful environment, at least for their own experience... perhaps in execution of their words and actions towards others they fail to reflect this.
As others have mentioned, in a medium such as this where people are not easily made to accept the consequences of their words in any real sense, "flaming" is indeed juvenile and cowardly.
I recently went to a seminar about teaching children safety and ettiquette for using internet and cellphones. One of the key points was teaching kids that the internet is now an extension of our reality and that they should behave as such. More and more everyday the line is blurred between our personal lives and the technologies that we use. Just because you choose to bully someone through a text message or a forum does not negate that it IS bullying. Use racially charged insults and it can be elevated to a hate crime. And a convenient side effect of all this technology is the creation of a record of these events that can be used as evidence against the perpetrator.
#7
Posted 05 December 2011 - 06:56 AM
I also think and believe that there should be traditions better gone through time as it was not proper and acceptably humane.
In terms of oral and internet culture, there are real healthy debate or conversations that could help readers and listeners learn more about a certain idea or topic. And it should be equally given importance and realization to be able to get both key points, not be bias and presence of respect to avoid unwanted behaviors.
In terms of oral and internet culture, there are real healthy debate or conversations that could help readers and listeners learn more about a certain idea or topic. And it should be equally given importance and realization to be able to get both key points, not be bias and presence of respect to avoid unwanted behaviors.
#10 Guest_climagician_*
Guest_climagician_*
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- Guests
Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:31 PM
Bullies pick on the weak - when the weak fight back teh bully looks for other targets. It's the law of the jungle and the playground. Political Correctness is an attempt to overturn nature because some peoples feelings might be 'hurt'. In this day and age there is only one motto to live by - HTFU!! 
#11 Guest_climagician_*
Guest_climagician_*
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- Guests
Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:32 PM
Basically I don't want to have to watch every single word I say in case it offends someone. I take no offense at anything anyone else says no matter what it is - so I sort of expect that back in return. I think anyone taht can't take a bit of mud or flaming shoudn't be on the internet. IMHO of course
#12
Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:35 PM
climagician, on 05 December 2011 - 03:32 PM, said:
Basically I don't want to have to watch every single word I say in case it offends someone. I take no offense at anything anyone else says no matter what it is - so I sort of expect that back in return. I think anyone taht can't take a bit of mud or flaming shoudn't be on the internet. IMHO of course
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#13
Posted 30 December 2011 - 11:55 AM
I don't agree with 'flaming' at all.
I've known some bullies in my life time and those I've come across who think I've improved for the better say it's because Of what They put me through that brought me to where I am (don't believe it). And those that think I'm just as 'no good' as I was then ad still am, just never cared for me in the first place. The problem is not weather it's socially acceptable in cultures, but why these individuals choose to do what they do.
In the end they're the ones that really have the problems, and have issues with themselves.
I've known some bullies in my life time and those I've come across who think I've improved for the better say it's because Of what They put me through that brought me to where I am (don't believe it). And those that think I'm just as 'no good' as I was then ad still am, just never cared for me in the first place. The problem is not weather it's socially acceptable in cultures, but why these individuals choose to do what they do.
In the end they're the ones that really have the problems, and have issues with themselves.
#14
Posted 30 December 2011 - 02:53 PM
makeitmom, on 30 December 2011 - 11:55 AM, said:
In the end they're the ones that really have the problems, and have issues with themselves.
said a mouthful.
Thankfully, he's no longer here.
#15
Posted 30 December 2011 - 04:05 PM
To be honest, there's so much "flaming" these days within online communities. It's actually quite annoying. I hate the fact that people can't listen to an opinion and be open minded about it anymore. Generally when I find a community that has a lot of people who rag on each other over pointless things, I generally leave that community for good.
#16
Posted 30 December 2011 - 09:23 PM
I pretty much treat it like I treat my toddler and employ a policy of temporary deafness: "If you are yelling, whining, or throwing a temper tantrum I can't hear you. I'm sorry, but when you calm down and tell me what you are trying to say in a calm fashion, I will be able to hear you again."
It seems to work equally well for flamers.
(If it doesn't, they can go sit in a corner for 5 minutes.)
It seems to work equally well for flamers.
(If it doesn't, they can go sit in a corner for 5 minutes.)
#17
Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:20 AM
JBMedia, on 30 December 2011 - 04:05 PM, said:
To be honest, there's so much "flaming" these days within online communities. It's actually quite annoying. I hate the fact that people can't listen to an opinion and be open minded about it anymore. Generally when I find a community that has a lot of people who rag on each other over pointless things, I generally leave that community for good.
(Now where's that finger in my ear's, singing fa la la smilie icon when I need it the most?)
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