24 replies to this topic

[Dingo]

In a country where 7% growth is considered a slow down, easing up on fossil fuels is not an option for now. Is chronic asthma the worthwhile price for having an American future? Maybe economic growth is not as great as its hype would suggest.

http://www.postcarbo...crisis-china-at

Quote

China’s pollution problem is rather simple; they now burn half the world’s coal – some 4.3 billion tons a year and 10 million barrels of oil a day. To cut pollution they have to cut coal consumption and at least put some controls on motor fuels, but to grow their economy at the targeted 7.5 percent a year, they almost certainly will have to increase coal consumption. Hydro, nuclear, and other renewables take too long to build or produce too little electricity. Something has got to go – breathable air or rapid economic growth.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

The "keeping up with Joneses" syndrome has hit them.

Asia has long been a huge bike society, but because a neighbor now has the money to get a car, they have to too;
despite the fact that they're more polluting and cause more congestion on overcrowded streets.
Maybe they feel that riding in a capsule will protect them from the rotten air quality but they're just adding to it.

According to this site, China was #1 in auto sales 2009-2012; buying over 15 million in 2012.
http://www.cri-repor...-2008-2013.html

GM sold them almost 2 million cars so far in 2013.
http://www.autoevolu...lume-62848.html

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 17 July 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

The "keeping up with Joneses" syndrome has hit them.

Asia has long been a huge bike society, but because a neighbor now has the money to get a car, they have to too;
despite the fact that they're more polluting and cause more congestion on overcrowded streets.
Maybe they feel that riding in a capsule will protect them from the rotten air quality but they're just adding to it.

According to this site, China was #1 in auto sales 2009-2012; buying over 15 million in 2012.
http://www.cri-repor...-2008-2013.html

But there are an awful lot of people there.
US purchases were almost the same but for about a quarter of the population. Put otherwise, four times the rate.
I'm not suggesting either is a good thing.

One thought though, and one I'm pretty sure I made here before.
If the car ownership density in USA was reduced to that of China, that would greatly reduce the total number of cars. The same point could be made about Europe.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

The point, at least in my mind is the fact that they used to be a bike society. Now because of desired status,
they've switched  to cars.
More pollution sure, but also the lack of exercise they used to get from bikes, and the stopping along
the way to be more social-able is lost; but I could be wrong about that last part.

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 17 July 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

The point, at least in my mind is the fact that they used to be a bike society. Now because of desired status,
they've switched  to cars.

Other than the Amish.......you get the point.

[Phil]

China is still building coal plants like there's no tomorrow.   Their economy is slowing because the entire world economy took a dive, if you depend on exports and nobody is buying.....  :<O

China will chose growth over pollution because their peasant class demands it, when you talk about income inequality we aren't even on the radar compared to most of the developing world and the peasants aren't having it, they want their piece of the pie.

Yes China pulled the same stupid stimulus stunt we did with exact same outcome, low growth and trillions more in debt, but that has noting to do with energy production, green or otherwise.

Riding a bike is great when you are 20 and it's 60 degrees out.  Not so great when you are 70 and it's -5 degrees out, particularly when you have a few bags of groceries. Don't even get me started on ice and snow! :<)  Even in mass transit EU millions of cars are sold, that will not change.  The developing world want's our lifestyle and why not?  It's a great lifestyle!

Cars will expand in the developing world regardless of oil prices.  They will continue to be ICE powered until the price of electricity/hydrogen combined with the purchase of BEV's/FCV's is in line with ICE auto's life cycle cost.  The utopian idea of mega cities connected with high speed rail will never happen, cities will become less and less viable over time.

As mentioned in another thread, animals seek maximum comfort and a full belly with minimal effort, the human animal is no different.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Phil, on 22 July 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Riding a bike is great when you are 20 and it's 60 degrees out.  Not so great when you are 70 and it's -5 degrees out, particularly when you have a few bags of groceries.  

Are you suggesting that people like me (older than recorded history) can't/won't ride a bike in 98 degree temperatures
like we had here today?   
You're 100% right.  

[Phil]

I forgot about the heat!  Chicago can get quite hot and muggy in the summer, even  growing up as a kid there were days you just wanted to sit below a sprinkler. :<)  I also remember going to a meeting in DC a decade ago, when I stepped off the plane I felt as if someone tossed a hot wet blanket over me.  The pundits are right California is a DRY heat, humidity is what is really miserable!

On another trip I flew into Las Vegas and took a limo to the hotel.  After a conference I walked outside and the thermometer read 140 degrees above the asphalt.  It was like walking into an oven.  That night I noticed kids were coming out after sunset to play, in the day I didn't see any kids.

With AGW making extremes worse it will be even harder for bikers, more hot days more cold days more severe storm days. :<(

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Phil, on 24 July 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

I forgot about the heat!  Chicago can get quite hot and muggy in the summer

Totally off topic to the methane, but  
when I was growing up outside of Chicago (boonies as a kid, the area became the suburbs by the time I was 7 or 8)
we didn't have a/c. I don't even remember fans. We weren't poor, just didn't have them.

I remember putting a wash cloth over my ear to keep the spiders out  (deathly afraid of spiders as a kid).
That was my only "cover"- no sheet on top, no blanket; just a wash cloth.
I have gotten past my fear of spiders years ago, but I still have to have my ear covered when I sleep.

As for where I'm at now- the panhandle of Texas, evap coolers always worked good in the past. Dry heat.
But as the population explodes, more people plant trees and grass and (this is my opinion, I'm sure it's not proven)
but the humidity goes up with it.
The evap doesn't keep me as chilly as in previous years.
So I use more fans. I almost refuse to use the a/c, except on brutal days. Haven't used it so far this year.

Sorry guys-
back to arctic methane.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

A change in guidelines after news of an 8 year old getting lung cancer has sparked outrage.
http://www.theguardi...ions?CMP=twt_fd

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Their citizens can't take a breath of fresh air, so rather than dealing with that issue and utilizing renewable
and cleaner energies instead of coal, they're building a luxury hotel
underground.
(Similar to "the house is on fire, so I think I'll read a book" scenario.)
http://www.businessw...ew-depths#r=rss

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Some readers may have missed this article from June of this year; the government is threatening death to polluters.

Serious threat but with political corruption; will they actually execute people?



"Chinese authorities have given courts the powers to hand down the death penalty in serious pollution cases,
state media said, as the government tries to assuage growing public anger at environmental desecration.
"In the most serious cases the death penalty could be handed down,” it said.""
Source

See also-
http://www.altenergy...-air-pollution/

http://www.altenergy...ngerous-levels/

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 29 December 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

Some readers may have missed this article from June of this year; the government is threatening death to polluters.

Serious threat but with political corruption; will they actually execute people?



"Chinese authorities have given courts the powers to hand down the death penalty in serious pollution cases,
state media said, as the government tries to assuage growing public anger at environmental desecration.
"In the most serious cases the death penalty could be handed down,” it said.""
Source

See also-
http://www.altenergy...-air-pollution/

http://www.altenergy...ngerous-levels/

Shortpoet-GTD, on 29 December 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

Some readers may have missed this article from June of this year; the government is threatening death to polluters.

Serious threat but with political corruption; will they actually execute people?



"Chinese authorities have given courts the powers to hand down the death penalty in serious pollution cases,
state media said, as the government tries to assuage growing public anger at environmental desecration.
"In the most serious cases the death penalty could be handed down,” it said.""
Source

I can understand the intent but it seems a pretty drastic measure.
If it does get handed down, I think it might engender a seriously hostile backlash from western countries. Perhaps even trade boycotts.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Besoeker, on 29 December 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

I can understand the intent but it seems a pretty drastic measure.
If it does get handed down, I think it might engender a seriously hostile backlash from western countries. Perhaps even trade boycotts.

I doubt it.
The Chinese government has been killing female babies for decades if not longer, and no one seems to care.

"Gender-selected abortion, abandonment, and infanticide are illegal in present-day China. Nevertheless, the US State Department, the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and the human rights organization Amnesty International have all declared that China's family planning programs, called the one child policy, contribute to infanticide."
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Infanticide

"Governmental policies have also increased female infanticide as an unpredicted side-effect.
For example, when the Chinese Government introduced a One Child per Family Policy there was a surge in
female infanticide.
Families needed to have a son because of their higher earning potential, so a girl baby was an economic
disaster for them, and there was a strong motive to ensure that girl babies did not survive."
http://www.bbc.co.uk...nticide_1.shtml

Knowing that, why would other countries be bothered about killing polluters when killing female babies
doesn't bother them one bit?

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 29 December 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

I doubt it.
The Chinese government has been killing female babies for decades if not longer, and no one seems to care.

The government maybe not.
The one child policy no doubt has a part in that. But it is the culture that wants a son.
From your link

Quote

"Governmental policies have also increased female infanticide as an unpredicted side-effect.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Besoeker, on 29 December 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

The government maybe not.
The one child policy no doubt has a part in that. But it is the culture that wants a son.
From your link

I only used that as a reference point say that death sentences come easily to their government
and killing a few company ceo's because of their contributions to the pollution, is no biggie.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Update-
China is releasing data on air pollution.
A large step, imo, in the right direction.
Wow.

"Since Jan. 1, the central government has required 15,000 factories —
including influential state-run enterprises —
to publicly report details on their air emissions and water discharges in real time,
an unprecedented degree of disclosure that is shedding light on the who, what, when and where of China’s devastating environmental problems."
http://www.washingto...3ba3_story.html

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Related-
A Chinese man sues the government for cleaner air.
(I wonder how long it will take the government to throw him in prison; never to be heard from again?)
http://america.aljaz...rpollution.html

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Small steps but at least they're in the right direction; reducing emissions to air and water.

"Sinopec said it plans to spend 22.87 billion yuan (US$3.67 billion) on 803 projects to improve the environment,
with about half the money devoted to four areas: reducing chemical-oxygen demand, a measure of water contamination,
and releases of the toxic water pollutant ammoniacal nitrogen, and cutting emissions of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide,
major air pollutants.
Sinopec said it cut chemical-oxygen demand by 3.17%, ammoniacal nitrogen by 3.79%, sulfur-dioxide emissions
by 9.43% and nitrogen-oxide emissions by 4.82% in 2013 from 2012, all of which met the ministry's targets."

Via the Wall Street Journal-
http://online.wsj.co...423-706902.html

[Dustoffer]

It is like they are oblivious to the necessary emissions reductions, and to the also necessary population reductions.