16 replies to this topic

[E3 wise]

If you are new to the forum you may not be aware of how bullish Lois and I are on Hydrogen Fuel Cells for transportation and energy generation.  The reasons are numerous.  Firstly hydrogen fuel cells mimic the chemical processes used by plants to transport energy to grow using the sun and photosynthesis.

The chemical equations is as follows CO2+2H2O+Photons-->Glucose+O2+H2O

Secondly using hydrogen as an energy carrier reduces water used in producing other fossil fuels and in the process does not pollute that water; likewise that water is returned by over 90% and thereby recycles that water to maintain the hydrological cycle that exists, once again mimicking earth’s natural process.

Next Hydrogen provides a viable way to store excess energy produced by alternative energy sources is an easy to store way.  Because of our work as Peer Review members with the NREL Solar and Wind to Hydrogen Programs we have had the benefit to be exposed to many groundbreaking and intuitive technologies that the average person may have little knowledge of, and it has been one of the reasons why we stay so excited by the potential available from hydrogen and fuel cell technology.

There are many other reasons but going into all of them would take much more time.

Hydrogen is an energy carrier and its full potential cannot be realized until Renewable Energy is used to produce that hydrogen.  For a little over 20 years our goal has been the integration of renewable sources as the first step in the hydrogen production nexus using solar, wind, hydro, biomass and bio waste.

Ten years ago our company Environmental Power & Water Generation adopted the model championed by Jeremy Rifkin and adopted by the European Union in 2007.  The adoption of this type of program here in the United States has been a longer process, with us seeing countries like Germany, Britain, South Korea, and Japan leap ahead of the United States in adoption by setting clear cut programs to provide a hydrogen infrastructure.

DOE Drives Hydrogen Car Infrastructure Push

This week the DOE (Department of Energy) moves to make that a thing of the past. This lack of fueling infrastructure is an obvious, giant hydrogen hurdle that the U.S. Department of Energy, once seen as lukewarm on hydrogen, is now aiming to do something about. This week the DOE launched H2USA, described as a “public-private partnership focused on advancing hydrogen infrastructure to support more transportation energy options for U.S. consumers, including fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs).”

Companies that will be involved in the imitative are to name a few the American Gas Association, Association of Global Automakers, the California Fuel Cell Partnership, the Electric Drive Transportation Association, the Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Energy Association, Hyundai Motor America, ITM Power, Massachusetts Hydrogen Coalition, Mercedes-Benz USA, Nissan North America Research and Development, Proton OnSite and Toyota Motor North America.

http://earthtechling...ructure-effort/

Now changing the United States transportation and energy culture is to say the least a daunting task, but what companies like Apple has demonstrated that the key to that culture change is providing top quality intuitive products that grab consumer’s imagination and adoption.  With the roll out of FCV’s in 2015 by over 10 major car companies, look for the push toward FCV’s to accelerate.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

I think "it can't happen quickly enough" every time I'm behind an old industrial truck spewing black fumes.
Thanks for the post.

[Phil]

When you are in those meetings I hope you push for water based as well as natural gas based sourcing.  There are a lot of people like me that will likely never see natural gas in their neighborhoods.  If they come out with reasonable home refueling I'm all over it.

[E3 wise]

While some in the Department of Energy see natural gas from fracking to be a good fit for hydrogen production, we do not agree, as stated in our reasons for being pro on Alternative Energy production of hydrogen, one of the biggest reasons is the savings in water usage, by being able to recycle water used over and over again in a closed loop system that yields over 90% recycling of clean fresh water with no pollution or quality degradation.  Fracking uses huge amounts of water, that is full of chemicals, carcinogens, and in some cases radioactive material.  Likewise it's detrimental effect on ground water, in our mind negates any possible benefits.

Phil does bring up a good point that many areas do not even have natural gas available, so hydrogen from natural gas is a mute point.

So lets give an example of the proper way to produce hydrogen from renewable sources.  1. Instillation of a cistern system to catch rooftop rain runoff to provide the water needed without adding any stress to our current water systems.
2. Instillation of some type of renewable energy or waste water treatment system to produce hydrogen and Oxygen using electrolysis.  Amperage levels using solar are actually quite low.  The best way is to use excess production of electricity to power the electrolyses after battery banks reach 90% recharge rates, this maximizes battery lifespans.
3. Storage of hydrogen using current propane technology and tanks.
4. Integration of fuel cells to produce electricity as needed.

[Besoeker]

E3 wise, on 20 May 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

So lets give an example of the proper way to produce hydrogen from renewable sources.  
1. Instillation of a cistern system to catch rooftop rain runoff to provide the water needed without adding any stress to our current water systems.
2. Instillation of some type of renewable energy or waste water treatment system to produce hydrogen and Oxygen using electrolysis.  Amperage levels using solar are actually quite low.  The best way is to use excess production of electricity to power the electrolyses after battery banks reach 90% recharge rates, this maximizes battery lifespans.
3. Storage of hydrogen using current propane technology and tanks.
4. Integration of fuel cells to produce electricity as needed.

I think what you propose is laudable. But not universely applicable.
I currently do collect rainwater that we use to water indoor plants thus avoiding some use of mains water and, incidently some costs as our water is metered.

But, when I first moved to England, I lived on the 13th floor of a 16 storey block of flats - maybe what you'd call an apartment building. One roof for 64 dwellings.
This one roof also puts constraints on collecting renewable energy per residence.

Is it a unique situation? Not really. It's a feature of most large cities and that's where we have the high population levels and densities. NYC and London have about 8 million. There are a few cities that approach or even exceed the 20 million mark and these are in countries not exactly known for their green credentials.

I don't mean to be negative. Whatever benefit we bring is a step in the right direction. That said, the problem is global and, to be effective, we need global solutions. And that's where I think it gets sticky.

[Phil]

Which is why I say cities are dinosaurs!    I think in the future most power will be local, excepting the metro areas which will have to be fed by wind, nuclear, hydro, etc. for the most part.  Virtually every environmental doomsday scenario I've seen has people abandoning cities as being unsustainable.  This would be way in the future of course, long past my expiration date.

I was concerned about natural gas as a solution because that seems to be the way many talk about it.  There was one car company whose home fueling system was based on natural gas.  Keep up the good fight Jeff!

P.S. I've begun negotiations with she who must be obeyed about adding more solar, wish me luck.

P.P.S.  I heard a new definition of libertarian, "A hippy who understands economics!"   I can live with that!

[Besoeker]

Phil, on 20 May 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

Which is why I say cities are dinosaurs!    I think in the future most power will be local, excepting the metro areas which will have to be fed by wind, nuclear, hydro, etc. for the most part.  Virtually every environmental doomsday scenario I've seen has people abandoning cities as being unsustainable.  This would be way in the future of course, long past my expiration date.

Mine too. Unfortunately, the problems are now and continuing.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Phil, on 20 May 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

I've begun negotiations with she who must be obeyed  

A libertarian living under communist rule. Interesting. (Just a gentle ribbing)

[eds]

I believe Phil was referring to a British Comedy called "Rumpole of the Bailey"
. . . Rumpole is an aging London barrister who defends any and all clients.
He secretly calls his wife Hilda "She Who Must Be Obeyed",
. . . a reference to the fearsome queen in the adventure novel "She" by H. Rider Haggard.

Source:  Rumpole

Attached Files

•  Rumpole.jpg   49.56K   0 downloads

[Phil]

Like animal farm, some libertarians are just more equal than others!    As my neighbor once said, the secret to a happy marriage is "yes dear"

Yes the problems are now and continuing and considering coal is #1 in energy growth it will get worse before it gets better world wide.  Once energy companies are allowed to export natural gas, hopefully we can help replace coal around the world.

Indeed Rumpole, great series.  One of my favorite quotes is from Monty Python, "can do, but won't".  I can't tell you how many times I've used that one!

[Besoeker]

eds, on 21 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

I believe Phil was referring to a British Comedy called "Rumpole of the Bailey"
. . . Rumpole is an aging London barrister who defends any and all clients.
He secretly calls his wife Hilda "She Who Must Be Obeyed",
. . . a reference to the fearsome queen in the adventure novel "She" by H. Rider Haggard.

Source:  Rumpole

I met the actor who played the role a couple of times, Leo McKern, in a pub on the outskirts of Oxford. Surprised me that he was an Austrailian.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

And this "she who must be obeyed" is suggesting-
back to topic.

[E3 wise]

Thank you Besoeker for bringing up the city issue and water recovery.  Several years ago we worked with a company developing a green building in Sacramento California.  The developer was looking for a way to harvest rain water for their HVAC refrigeration system and to provide water for landscaping.  Now the roof footprint was too small to provide enough space to capture all the water needed.  Likewise because of the chemicals on roads, such as oil, pesticides and other chemicals at ground level collecting sever runoff would not work without treatment to remove these trace chemicals.

Now the building was 16 stories with 12 residential spaces per floor, each had outdoor decks and patios which had drains to take runoff down to the buildings sewer system, do you see where I am going here.  What we did was provide a proposal to use that existing drainage system, but instead took that runoff to a large underground holding tank.

Water was pulled from the tank and then frozen at night when outdoor temperatures were lower, along with electricity costs.  That ice was used with evaporators to melt the ice during the day to cool the building, in winter a heat pump mechanism heated the water to provide heat.  All the water was recaptured and recycled.

Filters using activated charcoal filtered the water before it passes throw a low voltage 24 volt UV light tunnel to kill micr organisms.  Now at the time they were not interested in taking the water to potable quality.  However had they chosen to do so the system was avalible to do so.

Several skyscrapers in New York, Chicago, California one most recently Seattle are using this technology.  I would like to refer you to our postings on the Bullitt Center here on alt energy shift.  It provides a very good templet on how these technologies are being used.  It was designed to produce all the water and energy the building needs for a year.  Check it out.  

The winning design for the 2010 Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Energy Association H2 building design used the same existing technology in there building design that used solar energy and captured rain water for a hydrogen fueling facility on the building site using a Hydrogenics system for renewable hydrogen production in Toronto Canada.  Several German facilities will be doing the same.  Now don't get me wrong this does require additional costs, but it is quite possible.

Proton's hydrogen fueling station has a variant using this design also for areas where water is more costly or scarce as in drier SouthWestern United States areas.  Last thing we installed our small cistern system in 2007 it holds just under 1000 gallons.  We can fill it completely with the runoff from our home.  In fact because of South Florida rainy season I have to shut the intake off to avoid over filling it.  We use the water in our garden and yard.  That said if the need ever arose, in an absolute worst case scenario, it could be boiled for drinking water, or chlorinated if needed, that will never happen but it's nice to know that it is possible.  During the water rationing a few years ago water for gardening and yard watering was banned even if from wells.

Yet we had all the water we needed to grow a big garden that year and water the yard once a week.  The local code in forcemeat came by to give us a ticket, after seeing the permitting sign off and blueprints they left us alone, but it sure was nice seeing their face when we told them to have some all natural tomatoes, and green beans grown using roof runoff and no chemical fertilizers or pesticides.  We have a huge compost tumbler that gives us all the natural fertilizer we can use every two weeks, it and the cistern system gives us the ability to grow our own organic vegetables and herbs.


Nice question thank you.

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 21 May 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

And this "she who must be obeyed" is suggesting-
back to topic.

Ah, yes. The giver and remover of points must be obeyed.

[Besoeker]

E3 wise, on 21 May 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Thank you Besoeker for bringing up the city issue and water recovery.  Several years ago we worked with a company developing a green building in Sacramento California.  The developer was looking for a way to harvest rain water for their HVAC refrigeration system and to provide water for landscaping.  Now the roof footprint was too small to provide enough space to capture all the water needed.  Likewise because of the chemicals on roads, such as oil, pesticides and other chemicals at ground level collecting sever runoff would not work without treatment to remove these trace chemicals.

Now the building was 16 stories with 12 residential spaces per floor, each had outdoor decks and patios which had drains to take runoff down to the buildings sewer system, do you see where I am going here.  What we did was provide a proposal to use that existing drainage system, but instead took that runoff to a large underground holding tank.

Water was pulled from the tank and then frozen at night when outdoor temperatures were lower, along with electricity costs.  That ice was used with evaporators to melt the ice during the day to cool the building, in winter a heat pump mechanism heated the water to provide heat.  All the water was recaptured and recycled.

Filters using activated charcoal filtered the water before it passes throw a low voltage 24 volt UV light tunnel to kill micr organisms.  Now at the time they were not interested in taking the water to potable quality.  However had they chosen to do so the system was avalible to do so.

Several skyscrapers in New York, Chicago, California one most recently Seattle are using this technology.  I would like to refer you to our postings on the Bullitt Center here on alt energy shift.  It provides a very good templet on how these technologies are being used.  It was designed to produce all the water and energy the building needs for a year.  Check it out.  

The winning design for the 2010 Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Energy Association H2 building design used the same existing technology in there building design that used solar energy and captured rain water for a hydrogen fueling facility on the building site using a Hydrogenics system for renewable hydrogen production in Toronto Canada.  Several German facilities will be doing the same.  Now don't get me wrong this does require additional costs, but it is quite possible.

Proton's hydrogen fueling station has a variant using this design also for areas where water is more costly or scarce as in drier SouthWestern United States areas.  Last thing we installed our small cistern system in 2007 it holds just under 1000 gallons.  We can fill it completely with the runoff from our home.  In fact because of South Florida rainy season I have to shut the intake off to avoid over filling it.  We use the water in our garden and yard.  That said if the need ever arose, in an absolute worst case scenario, it could be boiled for drinking water, or chlorinated if needed, that will never happen but it's nice to know that it is possible.  During the water rationing a few years ago water for gardening and yard watering was banned even if from wells.

Yet we had all the water we needed to grow a big garden that year and water the yard once a week.  The local code in forcemeat came by to give us a ticket, after seeing the permitting sign off and blueprints they left us alone, but it sure was nice seeing their face when we told them to have some all natural tomatoes, and green beans grown using roof runoff and no chemical fertilizers or pesticides.  We have a huge compost tumbler that gives us all the natural fertilizer we can use every two weeks, it and the cistern system gives us the ability to grow our own organic vegetables and herbs.


Nice question thank you.

Good post if I may say so.
But if you live in a high rise building you don't, as a rule,  have a yard to water
Outdoor decks for such buildings generally don't exist for most parts of the world. Visit Hong Kong for example and you will get a feel for densley populated living.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Hydrogen fuel cells (no carbon footprint) video.

[E3 wise]

Thanks Shortpoet for the nice video.
There are several chemical processes that produce hydrogen as a waste product, likewise water treatment and landfills produce methane which can be used in other fuel cells to produce energy.
Solid Oxide Fuel Cells (SOFC’s) and Molten Carbonate Fuel Cells (MCFC’s) both can use methane (CH4) which is reformed by the units to produce electricity at efficiencies up to three times greater efficiencies.
Currently Bloom Energy SOFC is having the most traction in the industry, with users including Apple, Google, Wal-Mart, and many others using the technology.
In the area of water treatment Fuel Cell Energies MCFC is the leading producer.  Currently their biggest market outside the United States is South Korea which is using them extensively in landfill and water treatment facilities to produce combined heat and power (CHP).
One of the areas that the public has had little understanding of is the ability of MCFC’s to separate and concentrate CO2 which can be recovered for sequestration using many different storage areas.  The current projected costs per Metric ton are $18 to $28 per unit.  Meaning that for less cost than any other technology at this time MCFCs can sequester CO2.  So for $1800 to $2800.00, 1000 metric tons of CO2 could be sequestered, that is the equivalent of taking 288 cars off the road.
There are lots of other interesting facts regarding fuel cells and hydrogen that we are hoping the H2 USA program can call attention to; like similar programs in Europe, Britain, Japan, and South Korea, it is our hope that bringing important information to the general public will provide the jump start needed to quickly integrate more of the technology, because of programs like those outside the United States it looks like the EU and Japan will receive the lions share of Fuel Cell Cars in 2015.  The reason is that they are farther along with a hydrogen infrastructure.
That said this program may go a long way into evening the understanding here in the United States.  Our belief is that the increased focus on Renewable Hydrogen generation and waste production should be the low hanging fruit we begin with.
Once again thanks for the great video link, you’re the best.