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Global dimming.


 
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#1 Shortpoet-GTD

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 04:02 PM

A few of us former treehugger members may remember we had a thread on this, and
Dustoffer
:kiss:
reminded me of it on another post here.

What are your thoughts on the subject? :blink: :ohmy: ??

(A few links to get you started, if you are unfamiliar with the topic.)

http://www.pbs.org/w...al-dimming.html

http://en.wikipedia..../Global_dimming

Thanks all, ahead of time for your input. :biggrin:

#2 F.Tnioli

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:59 AM

Hansen's estimate is quickly becoming outdated (well it is already quite much) - present dimming is significantly more potent than just -1.2C global average.

There is artificial (intentional, we can indeed call it "geo-engineering") component to it last couple years, which is quickly increasing. The technology which is in part described by US patent 5003186 ( http://patft.uspto.g...RS=PN/5,003,186 ) - is being used on a massive scale nowadays - there are reports of Al oxides in lakes, ponds and soils with concentrations about 50-60 times above allowed (officially safe) maximums.

The thing was supposed to halt the warming, i heard one of most significant US researchers in this area saying that the thing is "riding on our grandkids' necks" when he was talking about (un)ethics of the thing. However, it seems that the technology only slowed the warming, somewhat, in late 2000s and early 2010s, but did not halt it. No wonder. Thermal intertia of the oceans. And now that Arctic snowpack is reduced roughly speaking by half, september sea ice volume by more than 80% - both things in compare to 1979 values that is, - well known albedo effects kick well in, pushing the Arctic into massive further warming (methane emissions which already are much intensified, too).

I have no doubt Hughes&Co can properly see the dynamic. If they could halt the process, they would. THey did not. Means they can not. Now, it is even harder to do than it'd be just a few years ago. This means they can't do it, at least with this tech, for sure now.

But slowing is still achievable, even if increasingly little slowing; and is desirable. Thus expect further increase in global dimmming, - and further increase of "hit back" when (not "if" - when) the spraying will stop, and i mean both geo-engineering spraying stopping and "side-effect" spraying such as micro-soot particles from coal power plants and such.

By the time it'd stop, i think the impact - in the form of rapid additional warming, - would be on the order of extra 2...5.5 degrees celcius, i estimate. This estimate includes positive feedbacks such as increase of methane emissions due to initial smaller increase of temperature, which in turn will make more greenhouse effect and thus further rise of temperature; but this estimate also includes negative feedbacks, for example the cornerstone fact that amount of energy radiated by hot body (the Earth in this case) into colder surrounging (the space at ~0 kelvin near Earth, in this case) - is proportional to 4th power of temperature difference.


And on the unrelated note, there are places on Earth which are very far from any industries, any major airlines, and major human population - but which nonetheless have some relatively small cities significant enough to keep the temperature record locally. In such places, effects of global dimming are much reduced - especially when main winds of the region are not blowing from much "dimmed" areas, but from relatively cleaner parts of the Earth. One such place is russian city of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatskiy - in the very far east of the country, well within Pacific ocean system, circulated by relatively clean - non-dimmed, - air masses. Its wikipedia page lists average temperatures for each month for years 2001....2012 (check the 3rd table, columns are 12 months and last column is annual averages). Someone deleted values in the last column of the table. May be because they thought there is some mistake. May be because they didn't want people to get alarmed. But there was no mistake, and indeed in this region of the Earth, average annual temprature did indeed rise by about 3 degrees celcius just during 2001...2012 - one can easily see it from monthly values in the said table, anyways.

*Moderator note-Readers-second link, you'll have to hit the translate button-it's in Russian.

#3 still learning

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:34 AM

View PostF.Tnioli, on 10 April 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

......
There is artificial (intentional, we can indeed call it "geo-engineering") component to it last couple years, which is quickly increasing. The technology which is in part described by US patent 5003186 ( http://patft.uspto.g...RS=PN/5,003,186 ) - is being used on a massive scale nowadays - there are reports of Al oxides in lakes, ponds and soils with concentrations about 50-60 times above allowed (officially safe) maximums.........

Intentional "global dimming" going on?  Large scale?

Care to point to any evidence? Something besides what you've already posted, which isn't at all convincing.

#4 F.Tnioli

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:57 PM

One good testimony i got about it, unfortunately, is impossible to post; i was told, in voice, by one person who was, at the time, an airport worker about one small company which adds metallic oxides to jet fuel. This was in 2009 if i remember correctly. The talk was not recorded (at least not by me, that is).

Then, of course, there is much discussion in public about the matter, few examples for you:

http://www.stopspray...e_Particles.php
http://www.checkthee...d=101&Itemid=50
http://beforeitsnews...num-934747.html
http://occupycorpora...ave-the-planet/

and thinking about effects desribed in here - http://www.wired.com...s/2002/05/52512 - i even wonder, could it be that intentional increase of athmospheric aerosols, by using some additives to jet fuel, was already practiced in US in 2001? The magnitude of temperature rise during those days of grounded civil jet fleet after 9/11, and significant decrease of the rate of average global temperature climb which happened exactly through whole 2000s decade, are both pointing to that.


But the best evidence about it - is my eyes. I do remember contrails of jet liners which i was seeing in my childhood. Hundreds if not thousands of them i saw, and they always were disappearing from the view fast, - depending on plane, altitude, weather and i don't know what else, it took anything from ~30 seconds up to ~5 minutes for contrail to completely vanish from my sight. But nowadays, i see ones which persist for hours. In 1980s and 1990s, contrails i was seeing were not of some small aircraft - i live near Moscow, and most planes flying around here are big airliners, 150-300 people capacity - and were back then in 1980s and 1990s too.


So if you want some better proof, then may be go and see yourself how contrails behave nowadays, and then try to find some old movies (1970s...1990s) which have some contrails displayed for you. Don't go for before 1970s, may be even try to keep to 80s and 90s only: in early days of jet aviation jet engines were many times less powerful than modern ones, and this surely affects contrails. However in 1980s, jet engines were already comparable in power to most models in use today. In vast majority of cases, at least where i live that is, contrails were shorter than half-a-sky to any ground observer, and i have no doubt that in any old movie which happens to catch some jet contrail on film - this will be visible and obvious.

#5 Shortpoet-GTD

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:44 AM

Previous discussion on this-
http://www.altenergy...ails#entry16326

#6 F.Tnioli

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:55 PM

Took a look. There is one more person reporting exactly the same i just did: by his own eyes, he knows that decades ago, contrails disappeared in a few minutes, nowadays they persist for hours.

Of course, there are many parties who argue, many who deny. Lots of people who "demand" hard proof and without it, they refuse to admit any "chemtrail" existance. Reasons for such a denial may vary, but among those, at least for some parties, is objective need to keep population out of this: indeed, if everybody would know that large amounts of chemicals are sprayed above our heads, which leads to a whole set of environmental and health problems, - then too many people will become active about it (as some already do), which will result in protests, demonstrations, petitions, possibly local and regional legislation against spraying, etc. All sorts of inconviniences. Given the fact that despite all the side effects, albedo management (read = chemtrails) are absolutely required to soften (if nothing else) current impact of global warming, and thus won't be cancelled anyways, - the most effective strategy is indeed to keep majority of population not aware, or at least in doubt, about chemtrail existance.

But me and that guy in old discussion, - we have our eyes. For him and for me, there is no doubt. And since this here forum is not a CNN broadcast which hundreds millions of people see, nor it is a frontpage of one of main internet sites like google, - quite limited number of people will ever read what was said here; and among those, many are seriously concerned about climate change anyways, so there is little use of trying to keep them in the dark - some here are already well aware about chemtrails, like me and the guy in older discussion, some others will realize the reality of chemtrails soon enough (if they are indeed serious about finding out what's going on with climate).

Ergo, i posted what i posted, and still think it was OK to do it here.

#7 Shortpoet-GTD

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:24 AM

Back to topic.

#8 F.Tnioli

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:05 AM

But it was all related, wasn't it? ><

But sure. Global dimming. One interesting bit about it i may add: the initial discovery of this phenomenon in 1980s was actually made as a side-effect of studies which were done in sake of agriculture. Amount of sunlight affects crop productivity. Assuming dimming above crop lands now being over 10% in compare to pre-industrial (it's higher on land as in compare to over oceans, for obvious reasons that most of man-made dimming agents fly out from land - and only minor portion from ships at sea) - we can be quite sure that agricultural productivity is definitely affected.

This leads to one important conclusion for the future: when most of global dimming would go away (this is inevitable at some point), will crops be able to mature and ripe significantly faster? If yes, then this is one important factor to combat increasing drought frequency and intensity: if crops can ripe and be harvested in shorter time, then it's lesser chance a drought would kill them before harvest.

I am no specialist in botanics nor agriculture, though, so i wonder if what i said looks true to one.

#9 Shortpoet-GTD

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:58 PM

May be related- maybe not.
Another view.
http://www.pbs.org/w...ail-effect.html

#10 F.Tnioli

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:27 AM

Let's just say i am not any much trusting to anything posted on any site which has a shop, especially a shop so blatantly designed to win the mind of a commoner, and especially not one with a pop-ups. And the site which you gave a link to has one - http://www.shoppbs.org/home/index.jsp - which has all three of those features...

#11 Shortpoet-GTD

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:57 AM

View PostF.Tnioli, on 15 April 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

Let's just say i am not any much trusting to anything posted on any site which has a shop, especially a shop so blatantly designed to win the mind of a commoner, and especially not one with a pop-ups. And the site which you gave a link to has one - http://www.shoppbs.org/home/index.jsp - which has all three of those features...

That's your choice, but PBS is a trusted news site that covers many issues that no one else talks about.

#12 F.Tnioli

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:28 AM

Somehow i have a feeling it's not so. Let's see. According to http://www.cpb.org/a.../cpbpbsnpr.html , CPB is "private corporation created by ... (and) ... funded by the federal government", and PBS is "funded by CPB and member stations". Add two statements together, and you get: PBS is funded by the federal government. In part, of course. However, i still do not think that any media which at least partially dependant on US government funding can honestly be said to be "trusted news site". Why?

http://en.wikipedia..../Social_control , quote: " Theorists such as Noam Chomsky have argued that systemic bias exists in the modern media.[7] The marketing, advertising, and public relations industries have thus been said to utilize mass communications to aid the interests of certain political and business elites. Powerful ideological, economic and religious lobbyists have often used school systems and centralised electronic communications to influence public opinion. "

In case you don't know yet, Noam Chomsky is the most cited scientist now alive, and iirc 6th most cited scientist EVER lived (together with such giants of thought as Einstein, Newton, Darwin etc).

"electronic communications" mentioned are exactly sites like pbs.org . Or do you think US federal government wastes their money just for keeping democracy? If you do, go youtube and listen to what Chomsky has to say about US democracy, may be. Being a resident of the country and one of brightest minds on Earth, if this man says it ain't democracy, then it ain't. And he does.

#13 Shortpoet-GTD

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:54 PM

Public tv has lost a substantial amount of funding from the feds.
I'll trust PBS over cnn and fox any-day.

From an older article-
"Public television and radio stations like PBS and NPR got just $445 million from the government in 2012—
or about 0.014 percent of the federal budget."

http://www.washingto...nd-pbs-and-npr/


PBS educates children; what does Amtrak do? It's funded via feds too.

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