21 replies to this topic

[FamilyTreeClimber]

Eugene Robinson has a thought provoking column today called "Feeling the Heat".  If you haven't read it, here is a link:
http://www.washingto...ZGJW_story.html

For those living outside the US, a freak wind storm hit the East Coast of the United States last Friday.  It toppled trees, destroyed homes, and left millions without electricity.  1.4 million homes still don't have electricity.  It is sweltering in this region.  Temps are toppling 100F in many parts.  The humidity is high in this region.  These people are living with no a/c or fans in homes that are over 90F inside.  They've now lost the food in the refrigerator and freezer.  Generators are sold out and they're having to buy ice.

Here is an article on the problems they currently face if you are not aware:
http://news.bostonhe...position=recent

Robinson makes the connection between this storm and climate change.  However, I think the important part came at the end.  Robinson makes the conclusion that if all these houses had solar panels they would all have electricity right now.

"One other observation: As repair crews struggle to get the lights back on, it happens to be another sunny day. Critics have blasted the Obama administration’s unfruitful investment in solar energy. But if government-funded research had managed to lower the price of solar panels to the point where it became economical to install them on residential roofs, all you global-warming skeptics would have air conditioning right now. I’m just sayin’. "

It makes me think about what determines how much something costs.  We are always weighing one thing against another for cost efficiency.  Solar panels are deemed  too expensive for most families.  Yet, I look at these repair crews who go out regularly to repair electrical poles and wires that are demolished in these storms.  From what I saw, most of the electrical wires are above ground, so it seems only logical that they will suffer damage periodically.

Add up the cost of replacing all that equipment, the cost of workers pay (especially overtime), then the losses the homeowners are suffering with the food and beverages they had to toss, plus any medical bills from heat related illness. The government will no doubt pick up most of the tab since the area will probably be declared a disaster zone which frees up federal dollars for repairs.   Wouldn't it be more cost effective to slap some solar panels on these homes over the long fun?  Wouldn't it be most cost efficient for the government to subsidize solar panels in these heavily hit areas if it would allow them to have electricity during these emergencies?  Considering all the infrastructure that will have to be replaced anyway, it makes me wonder if we're spending our money the right way.

I guess my main question would be is Eugene Robinson right?  Would the solar panels still be producing energy after this storm (provided they weren't knocked off buildings or destroyed themselves)?

[artistry]

I certainly think he is correct. The sun would be supplying the energy, things that need electricty would still be humming.  There will be more situations like these. The grid will not be repaired until the weekend.they say. Can you imagine the older people and the babies, in this awful period of time. Thanks for a thoughtful post.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

I would say yes for sure, if all of their power came from solar.
If it was just supplemental, I suppose they could at least power their a/c and frig maybe.

Coal is the heat though, and until we stop it or force those producers to clean up their act (here and in China and India too)
we're just spitting into the wind regarding climate change. Cattle and cars add a massive amount too.
And Eugene is an intelligent man, so I lean heavily towards trusting him.

[Pat]

As one of the people affected by the storm there has to be a better way.  We had no power for more than 4 days.  All the food spoiled with temperatures 90-100 degrees. We need a way to still function when the traditional power systems fail. The A/C you can do without but the refrigator full of food that had to go in the trash and be replaced we need to work on improving the system.

I saw old people trying to get relief

Is solar the answer?

[zararina]

If those stalled solar panels are also not knocked off or destroyed by the storm, then yes people will still have source of energy after the storm.
It had happened with us here several times that a strong storm destroyed properties and cut power lines. And it will be great if there will be back up sources on those calamities.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Well, the real answer is cities running their lines underground-this same issue came up last winter when
hundreds if trees had to be cut down after snow weighed them down so much that they took out power lines.
But with so many facing shortfalls in their budgets, this is unlikely to happen soon.

http://www.ctpost.co...ene-2243556.php

http://www.altenergy...for-powerlines/

[FamilyTreeClimber]

Eugene Robinson is one of my favorite columnists.  He always adds to intelligent discourse.

Pat, my heart goes out to you and all those who are going through this ordeal.  I have a friend who still doesn't have power at home, though she has it at work.  I saw people on the news who were attempting to eat everything they could those first couple of days.  You can only eat so much though.

Shortpoet, I thought about those above ground wires.  We have them in our neighborhood, but we don't have storms anywhere near what the rest of the country experiences.  If we get an inch of rain in 24 hours we call it the storm of the century.  But, I wondered why on earth, in these areas were hurricanes, tornadoes, and major storms are a fact of life, do they have power poles above ground?  If we are going to have to fix things every year, why not put money towards getting the electrical infrastructure underground?  It seems to be it would be more cost effective in the long run.  If we had a different Congress, repairing the ailing electrical grid would be part of our economic recovery.  How much money is wasted every year in some areas to repair the same power lines?

[Phil]

No it would not likely have helped.  There are three types of solar configurations.  Grid tie, grid tie with battery backup, and off grid.  The latter two require batteries and an inverter charger which are expensive.  Off grid would protect you because it isn't connected to the grid, grid tie with battery back up would protect you because it disconnects from the grid during failure and runs on batteries.

Because of the much greater expense, most opt for grid tie only, that's where the costs are only about $1.25/watt.  The problem with grid tie only is it has to shut down during outages, otherwise you would be feeding power to downed power lines that utility workers think are dead.  All grid tie inverters must meet this standard, I think it's UL1471 but don't quote me.

So, if you want to invest in something that powers you through emergencies you need grid tie with battery backup which doubles the cost.  Grid tie and a generator would be cheaper.

Hope this helps.

[FamilyTreeClimber]

Phil, thanks for the explanation.  We don't have solar on our house, so I've never had to research the differences and the cost.  I would suspect most people have the cheaper set up if they have solar.

It seems that one solution would be to get the power poles underground where they can't be toppled when a wind storm plows through town, right?  I'm sure this is costly but I wonder how much the power company has spent on overtime, materials, and any other costs to replace the downed poles and other equipment that failed.

I did see something scary on the news.  One family had their refrigerator hooked up to multiple extension cords.  The cords went across the sidewalk and down to the neighbor's house where they had electricity through a backup generator.  That does not seem like the safest thing to do.

[Phil]

The problem is it's really expensive to do and customers are their only source of income.  So if people are willing to pay they would be glad to do it.  I had power run to my building site and it cost $3000 and that did not include digging and filling in the ditch.  Since, in subdivisions, they would have to avoid sewer lines, phone lines, gas lines, and water lines I wouldn't be surprised if they charged $10,000 or more per house to do it.

Now is probably not the time but when things calm down a bit you might want to approach the company to do some research on costs.  They might also go the bond route and just increase your power bill a bit.  That seems like the best approach.  If you have the ability to petition, get one started.  Just remember, one way or another you will pay.

By the way, our utility uses above ground feeders up to the subdivison then buried every where else, so we do get an ocasional outage.  Since they trim the trees, ours is usually someone slipping on ice and taking out a pole along the road.  They have been moving the polls back from the road as well so hopefully outages will become more scarce.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Off grid and underground. Problem solved. Thanks Phil.

[Phil]

Or is that undergroud off grid!  

[MakingCents]

IF each house had their own solar power maybe, but if it was community solar power it effects nothing until you can get ALL the powerlines underground.  Our power lines and stretching out for about 10 miles in my city are underground and we RARELY lose power.

[Phil]

The only way solar makes sense is if you own it.  If others own it, it will increase your electric bill and cause environomental impact.  if you own it, it reduces your electric bill and there is no environmental impact, (your roof is already there).

It is much easier to bury in new subdivisions than to retrofit.  As I mentioned, having to work around all the other systems dramatically increases time and complexity.  What they typically do is dig to within a couple of feet of other pipes, wires, etc. then very carefully hand dig until they find the exact location.

As you said though, when we lose power it's the overhead feeders that bring power to the subdivision, not the underground wiring in the subdivison.

[FamilyTreeClimber]

I live out in California where PG&E has botched any semblance of competency.  It seems almost every day there is a story of a gas line that has been struck by construction workers because PG&E's records have errors.  I could just see how badly putting the lines underground would go here.  PG&E doesn't even know where their own gas lines are.

Speaking of going to solar as a community, I have heard that the utility companies in some states are trying to get the voters to approve their monopolies so that cities and counties won't ever get the idea to go off the grid as a community.  PG&E tried it in California claiming that it would mean a new tax if their initiative wasn't approved.  Thankfully, the people of California saw it for what it was--a power grab--and it lost.  But, I've heard that the initiatives have been approved by voters in a couple of states making them beholden to their utility companies.

I veered off a bit there.  I know that this problem is complex.  But, it seems that as a country we need to start weighing the cost of change to the cost of yearly repair.  We need something like the REA (Rural Electrification Administration) of the 1930s and 1940s.

[Phil]

The problem is usually disruptions are localized so you would be paying a lot to save a little.  If these massive storms become the norm that's another matter.

The last thing we need is yet another bloated federal bureaucracy.  You will pay either way but I guarantee the money will be better spent if the control remains localized.  This is easy enough to solve with a petition and a utility bond issuance.  That would spread the cost over 10-20 years.  If it's done nationally, those who have already paid for buried electric will be forced to subsidize those who went cheap so those that bit the bullet and did it right the first time will be taxed twice.

[FamilyTreeClimber]

The counter argument to not involving the government is the fiasco called PG&E.  After the San Bruno explosion that wiped out a neighborhood, we learned lots of things about PG&E.  For instance, we learned that they rarely test their gas lines.  We learned that they rarely did necessary repairs.  We learned that they fought back every piece of legislation to make them put automatic shut off valves on their gas lines.  We learned that for 60 years PG&E did the minimum to get by meanwhile making excuses to raise customer rates repeatedly.    We learned that in 1988 they had already identified a problem with the San Bruno gas line but decided to do nothing about it.  We learned this week that there are 239 lines just like the San Bruno line that they have identified as having a risk of explosion (this was a finding in April, but withheld from the public).  Now it looks like we will be paying a lot more even though we've already been paying them extra to make the repairs and upgrades they should have done all along.  They just decided not to do them.  But, they continually raised rates anyway.

Sorry for the rant.  But, I don't have that much faith in relying on the local utility to do what is right or even do what is needed.  I doubt PG&E is the rare bad egg.  It is what you get when there is very little regulatory oversight.

[Pat]

We have our lines for the lights under ground but the station that provides our power has the above ground lines.  Our area does not get hit as hard as some other areas I suppose, but can we do to protect ourselves in situations like this.

We depend on the power companies to do the right thing and it is not working.

[Phil]

Utilities are a monopoly by necessity so they need strong oversight.  Do you want the federal government doing it or the state, or the county?  The closer it is to you the more responsive they will be.  We have commisioners and if they aren't responsive they get voted out.  That is totally local and they are totally responsive.

Both federal and state governments have a very bad habit of taxing for one thing, then end up dumping the funds in the common pool and spending it on something else.  That's actually been in the news quite a lot lately.  With a utility bond issue, the utility is on the hook amd the funds can't be diverted to some congressmens pet project.

BTW, I used to live in CA and had PG&E.  No, they are not the norm.  They are the worst I've ever had and I've lived in a number of states.

Pat, why is it not working?  Is your power out?  How often?  Do you have a county or city commissioner?  Do you have a petition process?  Above ground lines are by far the cheapest.  If you only have an occaisional outage, the repair is far cheaper than going all buried.  If you want them buried anyway get a petition going, just remember you will pay.

[milano]

solar panels would fair better but there are better solar power generating technology out there than solar panels. Solar panels tend to be delicate in most scenarios. Did you know that so much heat hitting the panels would destroy it?