10 replies to this topic

[mariaandrea]

I'm currently reading the autobiography of the Russell Means, the Indian activist and fascinating character. I'm not very far into it yet, but one thing in it has already struck me. It articulates very well what I've always felt:

Quote

"Grandpa John also taught me to feel things, to instill wisdom instead of merely knowledge. In that way, during my childhood, I came to feel the Indians' love for our Grandmother, the earth.

In the linear, mathematic way of the Eurocentric male society that has long dominated America, that doesn't work. One is expected to know things, to believe things. Knowing and believing are all in your head -- there is nothing in your heart. If you cannot feel that the earth is your Grandmother, then of course you will find it easy to rape her, to behave as though she is under your dominion. You will find it easy to believe that we humans are the dominant species, and to act as though the earth and everything on it are ours to do with as we please."

It seems to me that without some kind of shift in the way we think as a whole in this country, a shift away from what he calls the "Eurocentric" way of thinking, that large-scale change is going to be difficult. We already think this way, but I don't think the majority of people do. Yet. Some day, I hope.

The book: "Where White Men Fear to Tread - The Autobiography of Russell Means" with Marvin J. Wolf

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Thanks for the positive input, mariaandrea.

(Considering all the "stuff" that is going on right now in the halls of congress from the euro-centric male society,
us woman have to fight for our Grandmother even harder.)

"Euro-centrism is sometimes manifested as inability to respect other cultures and unprovoked aggression towards distant peoples.
It also downplays the humanity and experience of others, viewing even European atrocities from the eyes of whites only,
and not giving credence to the unalienable rights of others to self-determine and defend themselves."

From Missouri Breaks-"Grandma's getting kinda tired now."

[artistry]

We need some kind of brand new thinking, if this will help the situation, then I am certainly all for it. We have totally battered and bruised our mother enough. Cheers.

[mariaandrea]

arboramans, on 04 March 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

So you don't beleive in Darwinian evolution then?

I'm not sure how you inferred that. In fact, I don't see how that relates at all.

I don't agree with everything Russell Means says and thinks, but I do feel that we need to feel in our hearts that our fate is intertwined with that of the planet and we need to respect not only all living things on the face of the planet, but the planet itself. That doesn't mean we don't harvest its bounty, but that we do so in a sustainable way, which we aren't now. And if we aren't it's because of the way we, as a society as a whole, have been thinking for generations. The status quo has polluted our air and water and blows up mountaintops to get at coal, for starters, without thought as to the consequences for future generations. We're focused on short-term needs and refuse to look at the long-term fate of the planet and the people on it.

What's interesting is that Darwinian evolution doesn't apply much to people anymore, with our modern techno/industrial society, but at the rate we're going, we'll deplete all the resources, die off in masses, the remnants will revert to a low-tech society, and evolution will once again take over.

[Guardian]

I'm a Pantheist myself so understanding the earth and how we rely on it is a point that I am highly aware of. Not sure if other Pantheists think we should take care of it as much as I do though. I totally agree with him and the Native American spiritual system ties very closely with my beliefs. I'm going to have to check this book out.

[tigerlily78]

arboramans, on 05 March 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Either the universe and everything in it is 'natural' or it has supernatural origins. Your belief system is tied into this fundamental premise. You either beleive that there is a spiritual side to reality , i.e. 'more than this' or you are a determinsit who beleives taht everything is just the reaction of chemicals and interaction of elements - there is no god and there is no free will as everything is predetermined. If you beleive in free will then you beleive in spirituality but then you must reject darwinian evolution.

You are assuming everyone ascribes to one of two extremes. Personally, I am an agnostic. I don't believe in any traditional form of Deism, but I do not discount the possibility of a greater power which gave rise to the creation of our universe. We have not yet solved the "mystery" of how the energy to create the Big Bang came into being... and I think this does leave a tenuous possibility for a Creator or some force outside of our universe.  If the Creator's only role is to spark the Big Bang (as I think might be the case), then you can absolutely believe in Darwinian Evolution and all other manner of well established scientific theories and laws, like the principles of physics, and quantum mechanics.

The one thing I find "fascinating" about Deists, and particularly Christians is that they want to refuse items like Evolution but then espouse that "all things are possible through God" and "God has a plan".  Isn't it possible God's plan involves the underlying patterns we see in nature, including evolution as a possible means to an end?

I think it is quite silly (and peculiar) to ignore and deny the evidence that lies before us to observe with our own senses and intellect and to instead embrace as "truth" what amounts to a glorified book of fairytales written by a patriarcal society thousands of years ago. They had no where near the scientific understanding we have now, and certainly not anywhere near our level of civil and humanist development (If you want a real chuckle, read Leviticus and it's treatment of women, slaves, remarriage, clothing, crops, etc).

I also always wonder why it is so easy for so many people to believe the "truth" of the Bible, when so many other just as nonsensical origin stories and religious doctrines pre-dated it. To replace one far-fetched story with another doesn't strike me as a vast improvement. The bible is nearly completely outdated in our modern society... except perhaps in the sense that some of the parable like wisdom might still have something to teach, in the same way children learn lessons from Aesop's Fables. That there are people who actually think the bible is something to be taken LITERALLY is just astonishing to me.

I will say that in the context of the modern world, I think the Native Americans had the most holistic and correct view... and the Buddhists might be on to a few things as well. It is clear that humans are part of a greater web of life, and no matter how we might like to refuse it, our fate IS intertwined with those other creatures living on this planet, and we must live in balance with the system or risk our own demise.

[still learning]

arboramans, on 05 March 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Either the universe and everything in it is 'natural' or it has supernatural origins. Your belief system is tied into this fundamental premise. You either beleive that there is a spiritual side to reality , i.e. 'more than this' or you are a determinsit who beleives taht everything is just the reaction of chemicals and interaction of elements - there is no god and there is no free will as everything is predetermined. If you beleive in free will then you beleive in spirituality but then you must reject darwinian evolution.

Is that really what you think?
That either/or?
That either there "is a spititual side to reality" or that there is no free will and that everything is predetermined?

[Shortpoet-GTD]

The power of religion and the way we refer to time has always astonished me-bc and ad.
(Probably off topic, sorry)

[Sandra Piddock]

I've always thout that indigenous peoples - those who were often referred to as 'natives' and 'savages' in such a deprecating manner - were much more in tune with the earth and its wonders than the so-called 'civilised' peoples. Just because we can blow up mountains and empty the oceans, it doesn't mean we have to do it. For thousands - no, millions - of years, people have fed and clothed themselves from the Earth's resources, yet in our technological age, we run the risk of running out of vital supplies, and killing off species that have inhabited the Earth for many centuries.

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing - they're right.  I must look out for this book, it sounds like he talks a lot of sense.