15 replies to this topic

[Jessi]

Quote

Wagner: Environmentalists, all too often, think that the best way to go about solving the problem is to get everyone to do as they--we, I included--do. I don’t eat meat. I don’t drive. But individual do-gooderism won’t solve global warming.
You carry your groceries home by foot, in a cotton canvas bag, and you think that single act of environmental kindness makes up for other sins.

And it may actually be counter-productive, for two reasons. First, there’s a well-documented psychological phenomenon called “single-action bias.” You do one thing, and you move on. You carry your groceries home by foot, in a cotton canvas bag, and you think that single act of environmental kindness makes up for other sins.

Second, you spend all your energy thinking about these tiny things. Should you buy the local apples that have been stored for months in a cool house somewhere, or should you buy the fresh apple flown in from across the world? Or should you not buy apples at all when they are not in season and risk not getting enough vitamins?

You’d go positively crazy trying to figure out what to do, and you’d miss the big picture: That, at the end of the day, none of that really matters.

http://www.fastcoexi...endly-lifestyle
That's only a small portion of what's in the article, so if you're intrigued at all, I recommend giving the rest of it a read.
I certainly don't think we should stop carrying our greener bags and reducing how much waste we create, but what do you think about the other points the article brings up?

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Granted, our little acts of "kindness" to the earth might not matter much
but
I've often likened it to rain.
One raindrop goes unnoticed. It rains harder, people cover their heads and duck in doors.
Rains harder still, and they're struggling to fill the sandbags as fast as they can.

Greenies like us? We are the raindrops.

Environmentalists can be that deluge.

But we have to raise our voices in unison to the powers that be, and yell-
"I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

Social media, as has been proven several times recently concerning koman/planned parenthood, labor
union busting, invasive procedures on woman, etc. proves that once we raise our voices in dissent,
things do change, and actually quite quickly.

The problem with emissions, global weirding-whatever title you want to put on it-not enough people
are angry about it yet and voicing their disgust over lack of state and federal actions.
And this is world wide too. It's not just quiet Americans.

People in most countries are quiet too.

Without us demanding change, it either won't get done, or will change so slowly, that is won't matter anyway.
My only advice is to put the members of the energy committee on your "speed dial" along with Mr. Obama.

E-mail often, twitter congress/senate, write to them, call them if you can.
We have to keep yelling- "Hey, I want a cleaner planet!"

'Cause if we don't, the single raindrops will continue to be ignored.
End of rant.

[mariaandrea]

His argument seems logical on the face of it, and of course it applies to some people, but I think he's ignoring or missing how a lot of "greenies" actually think and what we actually do. For illustration, all you have to do is look at this forum and at all the different topics where we discuss all the different ways we can make changes - from small lifestyle changes to calls for action on a larger level, like writing our politicians about big issues and voting with our wallets. I don't think most intelligent people who think the world needs to be greener think a couple of little changes will do it and I think most of us realize it will take multiple changes on multiple levels, from small to large scale. That kind of thesis makes for good headlines and can attract attention to the issue, but it's also patronizing and a bit insulting.

[Sandra Piddock]

This is the point that particularly caught my attention:

'There’s a reason why many of the best climate scientists have essentially moved on. They don’t think the world can rein in climate changing pollutizon on time to avert the worst and are instead looking to geoengineering, shooting particles into the upper atmosphere to deflect sunlight, as a stop-gap measure. No one knows whether it will work. Very few think it’s a good idea. Yet that’s where science is heading.'

It makes it sound as if everyone is in a panic, when the reverse is possibly true. Even if it's not the case, it's an attention-grabbing interview. Perhaps that's the idea? He does have a book to sell, after all.

One of the most ubiquitous quotes during World War II was 'I'm doing my bit,' and various versions - 'we're doing our bit,' 'everyone must do their bit,' etc. All these 'bits' added up into something that defeated one of the greatest threats to freedom the world has ever known. So yes, the little things do matter, although we mustn't lose sight of the bigger picture.

[still learning]

Jessi, on 29 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

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http://www.fastcoexi...endly-lifestyle
That's only a small portion of what's in the article, so if you're intrigued at all, I recommend giving the rest of it a read.
I certainly don't think we should stop carrying our greener bags and reducing how much waste we create, but what do you think about the other points the article brings up?

Maybe I should read Wagner's book, but after looking at the linked interview by Andrew Price at co-exist I'm inclined not to.

The article includes ridiculous (to me anyway) statements, apparently by Wagner, like this:
"There’s a reason why many of the best climate scientists have essentially moved on. They don’t think the world can rein in climate changing pollution on time to avert the worst and are instead looking to geoengineering, shooting particles into the upper atmosphere to deflect sunlight, as a stop-gap measure. No one knows whether it will work. Very few think it’s a good idea. Yet that’s where science is heading."
By "many' Wagner means how many?  Two?
  "Yet that's where the science is heading?"
I don't think anybody can support that statement.  It is true that a few workers have looked in that direction.  Maybe you can say that if we continue with business-as-usual fossil fuel use we'll  eventually be asking for geoengineering solutions.

"we need more than well-meaning environmentalists--we need smart economics."
That part is certainly true.  We need politicians that will pass the necessary laws that will allow the path of economics to bend away from the unsustainable business-as-usual direction to something approaching a zero-fossil-fuel-using economy.  Thing is though that the path to electing those politicians will be with the aid of "well meaning environmentalists."

Maybe I should read a different interview of Wagner.  The co-exist one does not impel me to read his book.

[fancyfingers]

Shortpoet,
Great analogy of a person doing an act of taking the grocery home in canvas bags to a raindrop. If we keep adding raindrops, we might even see the levy starting to overflow and maybe even break! That would be something.  I would find it facinating and uplifting if all these environmentalists, bookwriters, etc would walk the walk when they are talking the talk.

[rbaker_59]

Sandra Piddock, on 01 March 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

This is the point that particularly caught my attention:

'There’s a reason why many of the best climate scientists have essentially moved on. They don’t think the world can rein in climate changing pollutizon on time to avert the worst and are instead looking to geoengineering, shooting particles into the upper atmosphere to deflect sunlight, as a stop-gap measure. No one knows whether it will work. Very few think it’s a good idea. Yet that’s where science is heading.'

It makes it sound as if everyone is in a panic, when the reverse is possibly true. Even if it's not the case, it's an attention-grabbing interview. Perhaps that's the idea? He does have a book to sell, after all.

One of the most ubiquitous quotes during World War II was 'I'm doing my bit,' and various versions - 'we're doing our bit,' 'everyone must do their bit,' etc. All these 'bits' added up into something that defeated one of the greatest threats to freedom the world has ever known. So yes, the little things do matter, although we mustn't lose sight of the bigger picture.

I totally agree.  I feel that the biggest problem with the idea is that the majority of the people all across the planet either don't understand the green idea or choose to ignore it because it is an inconvenience to them.  As long as the few keep working to make the planet greener, slowly the others may follow suit when they see with their own eyes that little things we do to go green truly make a difference.

[sally310]

This article raised some good points that really got me thinking.  Does it really matter?  Yes, I feel that it matters now and every day.  Every small step that I take is one in the right direction.
However, there is still so much room for improvement.  One of the thoughts that occurred to me is that each and every one of us should be more vocal.  We should talk more about being green and the steps we take every day.  
One thing I have noticed is that people are more inclined to listen to me when I tell them they can save money.  For example, in summer I always line dry the laundry.  People often comment on this as if its some quaint mother earth thing.  When I point out that it saves energy and saves me money they really start to pay attention.  Not to mention my laundry smells wonderful.
I have already had friends convert to line drying because of this.
Maybe if we as a movement play up the financial advantages of eco-friendly practices more people would think about getting on board?

[MakingCents]

It's an interesting article for sure. An dI too like the raindrop analogy.  As a 'semi-greenie' I would urge all your hardcore greenies to take the correct approach in getting 'converts.'   I know that I for one don't like people who are constantly forcing their agenda down my throat time after time after time.   Explain it to me, lead by example, give me an easy way to make a change and then I will probably make the change too.   Then move on to the next thing.

Too often I think when people are 'preachy' many other peopel shut down.  We seem to live in a society where people want hte idea to be theirs.  SO put the information out there and hopefully people will be the change on their own.

A little off-topic to this article I know but it's my suggestion on how to make the rain-drops turn into a rain shower.

[sally310]

This is a good point.  Many people jump to conclusions.  The moment you mention anything green they just assume you are a hardcore, live off the grid type.  I am always amazed by how many of my friends just don't want to hear about anything green.  It seems they have attached a very negative image to it.  Maybe a way to get around that image is to use the economical perspective.  Especially with the current economy.  Many of us are having to watch the pennies and are more willing to take a different approach.  I laugh all the time about thrifty being so trendy now.  After having years of being ridiculed for my thrifty ways they are now quite popular.  I also tell everyone that I shop at consignment stores.  The bargains are amazing, especially for kids clothes and shoes.  I feel that if we are not ashamed of it maybe others will be tempted to try it.

[mariaandrea]

sally310, on 09 March 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

This is a good point.  Many people jump to conclusions.  The moment you mention anything green they just assume you are a hardcore, live off the grid type.  I am always amazed by how many of my friends just don't want to hear about anything green.  It seems they have attached a very negative image to it.  Maybe a way to get around that image is to use the economical perspective.  Especially with the current economy.  Many of us are having to watch the pennies and are more willing to take a different approach.  I laugh all the time about thrifty being so trendy now.  After having years of being ridiculed for my thrifty ways they are now quite popular.  I also tell everyone that I shop at consignment stores.  The bargains are amazing, especially for kids clothes and shoes.  I feel that if we are not ashamed of it maybe others will be tempted to try it.

Yes, that's how I approach the whole subject with people who have negative views and opinions. It's a simple, quick argument to make that certain aspects of being green are exactly like being frugal and that being green saves money. And that's something everyone wants to do. I just point out that "green" is a byproduct of saving money. :)

[Alli]

I definitely think tying the idea of doing little things to saving money helps a lot to convince others...but I also agree that politicians need to make the big decisions to make being green much more economically viable- as long as oil is cheap, it is easy for people to ignore the environmental consequences in favor of cheap and efficient personal transportation. When driving becomes cost-prohibitive, then we might see massive public transportation investment.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Thanks for the positive "raindrop" analogy feedback.
And I totally agree with sally310-we must be more vocal, especially now with all the distractions that
are currently hitting the airwaves i.e. limbaugh, birth control, the campaign clown car, etc.

Noisy raindrops unite!

[CryoMage]

In my neighborhood there was a big trash heap, not caused by organized dumping or anything like that, but by people, myself included simply throwing gum, plastic bottles, anything on it. Then one day my friend said enough and we started a little action at our school that was very simple. We encouraged people to hold on to those little items they would throw, and to put them in the bins at school. Then we called the local cleaning service and they got rid of the heap. Now there is a cute little children's park there, and nobody dump their trash there. And it all started by making maybe a 100 kids nag their parents about the dumping. So when anybody says that individual action is meaningless I say, yes it is meaningless, until you inspire someone else to go along with you for the ride. Or as Shortpoet would say, we are raindrops :D

Noisy raindrops unite! <- best slogan ever

[Shortpoet-GTD]

CryoMage, on 10 March 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

In my neighborhood there was a big trash heap, not caused by organized dumping or anything like that, but by people, myself included simply throwing gum, plastic bottles, anything on it. Then one day my friend said enough and we started a little action at our school that was very simple. We encouraged people to hold on to those little items they would throw, and to put them in the bins at school. Then we called the local cleaning service and they got rid of the heap. Now there is a cute little children's park there, and nobody dump their trash there. And it all started by making maybe a 100 kids nag their parents about the dumping. So when anybody says that individual action is meaningless I say, yes it is meaningless, until you inspire someone else to go along with you for the ride. Or as Shortpoet would say, we are raindrops :D

Noisy raindrops unite! <- best slogan ever

You are a PEACH!
Thanks for that uplifting story. We can change it if we work together.
You made my day with "Best slogan ever"
Thank You.
And welcome to our community!

[adriannei]

Actually, it does matter. Buying the apples that have been stored is a better choice. Just think about it logically. The other apples aren't a good idea since these are foreign, meaning flown. Plane gas is hurtful to the environment. The stored apples on the otherhand - may have been picked from the area. If everyone bought apples that were produced on their area instead of another state or country, it would eliminate fuel costs and energy.

I am not into going green as much as I should be, but I always walk instead of taking the car. It makes things so much easier and plus, I am helping the environment. If everyone did this, there would be a huge difference.